# I regret to inform that we still don't die enough **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** pvp\ **Created:** [November 15, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984 "2021-11-15T16:34:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 5:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/281 "2021-11-26T05:06:53Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Yeah, I’ve put a number of proposals out over the years on how it wouldn’t be terribly hard to make _actual_ PvP (you know, combat ships vs. combat ships) at the solo/small/ganker level viable. > > The gankers are terrified of the idea. They generally pile about 4-6 of them in to spam trolling and get threads like that shut down. Kinda silly, since CCP isn’t listening and isn’t really competent to make it happen anyway, but there it is. Egos must be protected at all costs. One single simple change would allow it. Make Concord protection decrease…i.e response time increase for that person…for every extra 30 seconds ( or some such time ) that a person spends within 300km ( or some other define distance ) of a gate. And after 2 minutes have that protection disappear altogether. There is absolutely zero reason other than ganking for people to be hanging around highsec gates. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 5:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/282 "2021-11-26T05:21:55Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > And after 2 minutes have that protection disappear altogether. There is absolutely zero reason other than ganking for people to be hanging around highsec gates. The majority of gankers don’t “sit at gates”, they warp in when a juicy target is scanned a system earlier and is about to land on the gate. Some do but those are mostly the solo or small time gankers, popping basic stuff. The ones who pop the big stuff don’t “sit at gates” other than their scanning alts who use inconsequential cheap frigs to cargo/ship scan. Folks who gank miners also don’t “sit at gates”. By using such a “solution” all you’re really doing is forcing small time & casual gankers to form another Voltron, going tryhard. Creating an even bigger menace which people, and you, will then undoubtedly make rage threads about. If you don’t know what you’re talking about perhaps you shouldn’t offer solutions. - edit - Also it would have hilarious effects on “normal players”: go afk for 2 mins, get fcked by anyone and everyone. Well done, what a great idea. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 5:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/283 "2021-11-26T05:28:47Z")
Technically, most gankers are outlaws and don’t have CONCORD protection anyway. The few who use tags to keep their sec status up (the selective “big game” for-profit gankers) already pay for the privilege (with the money going to players who take the initiative to do PvE in low-sec), so further changes to the system wouldn’t add anything without taking something else away. Also, it’s easy to get kill rights on those players to attack them at will in any location. The idea would be massively exploitable to kill innocent neutrals and anti-gank players too, so… > [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > If you don’t know what you’re talking about perhaps you shouldn’t offer solutions. …is very valid advice. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 6:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/284 "2021-11-26T06:40:22Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > It doesn’t exactly help that’s there’s no where one can even practice one’s combat skills first with PvE…without being ganked 🙂 Wut. I mean how can you expect to be taken seriously when you say stuff like this? I’ve been running missions for the past 3 hours. Not been ganked once. How do you explain that? > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > The whole inflation thing is a myth. And I can tell you precisely why… > > Sure, gankers destroy stuff…and destruction runs the whole Eve economy. BUT…the very existence of gankers themselves is the source of production of endless shield enhancers, rigs, cloaking devices, yada yada, that people would not buy in highsec but for the ganker threat. > > There are vastly more of those shield enhancers, etc, that DON’T get destroyed by gankers than those that do. Thus gankers are not curing inflation…they are actually causing it ! They are the cause of most of the production that needs destroying in the first place, and they only destroy a small part of that. > > So the end product of gankers is…more ‘stuff’ in Eve than ever before. It def is not a myth. See what’s happening to New World’s economy right meow 😃 Or what happened to UO’s economy post-Trammel. There is a ton of data. Sorry, you’re just wrong bruv. > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Oh, yes gankers love to see themselves as Darwinian lions culling the herds of stupid wildebeast. But its all nonsense. > > Lions have no option but to hunt…otherwise they starve. Gankers are not thus constrained. You won’t see a starving ganker begging on a street corner in Jita. I mean…they could swallow some pride ( excuse the pun ) and go join all those ‘lazy, AFK, stupid, yada yada…stereotypes’ miners couldn’t they ! > > No…lions are WAY too high up the food chain to compare with gankers. Try…leeches. What makes a lion different from a leech? > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > I consider this continued lie to be tantamount to griefing. You have been warned. Oh snap its Ridley ROFL. He finally couldn’t contain himself 😃 > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > As compared to the very stupid idea of having things last forever and thus needing to be destroyed with the assistance of all those utterly altruistic Robin Hoods…sorry…lions…out there I mean in terms of in game lore, they’ve solved death. It is not a stretch they’ve made frictionless parts etc. > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > No, I’m pointing out that it is simply not true that ganking is anti inflationary as was claimed. More stuff gets created because of ganking than gets destroyed by it. That is not anti inflationary…it is inflationary ! You really don’t understand basic econ huh? You have no idea why scarcity was implemented huh? > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Why would a highsec miner need shield extenders if ganking didn’t exist in highsec ? > > And no, even in highsec ratting most of my fit is there to increase EHP against gankers…as I’ve seldom had shields down to almost zero during ratting…and could simply run away if that happened. I would always far rather increase firepower than shield…and its only the risk of coming across half a dozen Catalysts with webifiers, or hanging about at some gate, that causes the extent of defensive measures. So what you’re saying is we should increase rat spawns up to BS level in high sec so there’s a reason for mining ships to fit tank. I agree 😃 > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Ganking is not the solution, as it makes Eve a ridiculously predictable place. Heck, I can avoid gankers almost completely just by mining at certain times. So you admit ganking isn’t a problem 😃 Thankee. > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Maybe that’s because, as a noob, You aren’t a noob or RPing. But you’re so bad at trolling Ridley… > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Not only that…but I am simply tired of the sheer smugness with which some declare that _they_ are the lions whilst everyone else is the wildebeast. What makes them not a lion? > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Often it takes an outsider, or someone totally new to a situation, to come in and have that ‘what the $%&\*…’ moment and see the wood for the trees. But you don’t see wood at all. That’s the problem. > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > The despised miner is ‘playing the game’ as much as anyone else. Of course they are. All playstyles are valid, from miner to gank. And all of that is PvP 😃 > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > And yet…you are quite happy for the entire contents of someone’s hangar to be ganked in a Providence passing through Jita, as was illustrated earlier. I am. Cause if they are hauling their life savings thru Uedama they deserve to lose it 😃 > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > This is no different to the affront by which gankers self-declare themselves the lions and everyone else the wildebeast. Everyone in EVE is both. Its just you and your ilk always choose to be the wildebeest 😃 > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > demanding everyone play PvP. You consent to PvP as soon as you undock, no matter what the sec status of the system. Please, please learn to EVE kthx. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > EVE is tilted towards ganking weak targets in safe space ROFL. They are only weak because they chose to be so. And part of that is they believe the lie you peddle. No space is safe 😃 In a way, you are contributing to people getting ganked simply due to the lies that you propagate. They embrace victimhood, think high sec is safe and then die in fiery anti-matter. Its lovely 😃 > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > The thing gankers seem to fear most is the idea that EVE combat might some day become tilted towards hunting _gankers_. Wut. You can literally hunt them right meow. I’ve done it myself. It is not that hard? Yennoe, these posts always make me realize the people complaining about ganking flat out suck at PvP. It is definitely linked. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Ganking is only a frequent topic at all because EVE’s PvP combat scene is such an utter wasteland of boredom that 90% of the time _there’s literally nothing else to talk about_. Not really. Tons of other PvP is going on all the time. Its just peeps cry more about being ganked because of the lies you propagate 😃 > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Oh it will. The biggest problem at the moment is that it is all but impossible to take on gankers without ISK loss…as gankers by definition choose the cheapest ships and fit. So hunting gankers, at least for the time being, _means_ ISK loss…and that is largely why gankers are not taken on and people just apathetically sit around watching like wildebeast watching one of the herd get munched by lions. You can literally hunt, and kill gankers, in ships just as cheap. Literally. People don’t take on gankers because they adopt victimhood, like you do. Find friends. Get some kessies/crucs/maulus and go to work. > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > The other side of it is that it is all but impossible to proactively take on highsec gate campers, gankers, etc…because of the Concord dynamics. Get some hull tanked brutix’s with blasters and crucs, camp gate with them, wait till flashy, blap. Set crucs 100km out spidered around the gate. Be on comms. Focus fire with with the tix’s as crucs TD the catas/thrashers. You’re welcome. > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Personally I think a battle between gankers and anti-gankers would be the best thing that could possibly happen in Eve. It would destroy a lot of ships, be really good fun, and could be something that could be allowed to continue indefinitely. But it would require a few changes to really make it practical. It literally happens all the time. Except peeps don’t actually fight back most of the time. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Yeah, I’ve put a number of proposals out over the years on how it wouldn’t be terribly hard to make _actual_ PvP (you know, combat ships vs. combat ships) at the solo/small/ganker level viable. It is. Fleet up, frig pursuit fleet with hypers, follow gank fleet around until they strike and then you blap. Just following them would discourage them from blapping. But you won’t. Cause its all talk 😃 > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > One single simple change would allow it. Make Concord protection decrease…i.e response time increase for that person…for every extra 30 seconds ( or some such time ) that a person spends within 300km ( or some other define distance ) of a gate. And after 2 minutes have that protection disappear altogether. There is absolutely zero reason other than ganking for people to be hanging around highsec gates. Other than peeps are free to go wherever they want in space ROFL. What? Now idling at a high sec gate should be illegal? ROFL. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 7:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/285 "2021-11-26T07:00:48Z")
> [@Gix\_Firebrand](#): > > Oh snap its Ridley ROFL. He finally couldn’t contain himself 😃 I doubt it’s Ridley, but whoever it is, they really need to up their game because these very obvious inconsistencies make it hard to buy into the illusion: > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > It doesn’t exactly help that’s there’s no where one can even practice one’s combat skills first with PvE…without being ganked 🙂 > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Ganking is not the solution, as it makes Eve a ridiculously predictable place. Heck, I can avoid gankers almost completely just by mining at certain times. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 7:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/286 "2021-11-26T07:07:50Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > I doubt it’s Ridley, but whoever it is, they really need to up their game because these very obvious inconsistencies make it hard to buy into the illusion: Maybe, but he always prattles on about griefing haha. I feel like maybe you got to him too hard and it forced him to break character for a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 7:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/287 "2021-11-26T07:19:42Z")
I don’t think Ridley is a troll, which I guess makes him a _really good_ one if he _is_. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 10:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/288 "2021-11-26T10:12:43Z")
Since you always cry about people not helping you, let me drop some knowledge on you. Below is some tactics/fits you can use to fight gankers. 1. Scenario 1: Frig Pursuit Fleet [Crucifier, AG FIt Pursuit Fleet] IFFA Compact Damage Control F-89 Compact Signal Amplifier F-89 Compact Signal Amplifier 1MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner DDO Scoped Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script DDO Scoped Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script DDO Scoped Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script 250mm Light ‘Scout’ Artillery I, Proton S 250mm Light ‘Scout’ Artillery I, Proton S Small Particle Dispersion Projector I Small Particle Dispersion Projector I Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I Hobgoblin I x3 [Maulus, AG Fit Pursuit Fleet] Mark I Compact Power Diagnostic System Mark I Compact Power Diagnostic System F-89 Compact Signal Amplifier 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive F-90 Compact Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script Kapteyn Compact Sensor Dampener, Targeting Range Dampening Script Kapteyn Compact Sensor Dampener, Targeting Range Dampening Script 250mm Light ‘Scout’ Artillery I, Proton S 250mm Light ‘Scout’ Artillery I, Proton S Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I Small Particle Dispersion Projector I Small Particle Dispersion Projector I Hobgoblin I x4 [Kestrel, AG Fit Pursuit Fleet] Ballistic Control System I Ballistic Control System I 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Initiated Compact Warp Disruptor Peripheral Compact Target Painter F-90 Compact Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script Arbalest Compact Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile Arbalest Compact Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile Arbalest Compact Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile Arbalest Compact Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I [Empty Rig slot] [Condor, AG Fit Pursuit Fleet] Ballistic Control System I Ballistic Control System I 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Initiated Compact Warp Disruptor Peripheral Compact Target Painter F-90 Compact Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script Arbalest Compact Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile Arbalest Compact Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile Arbalest Compact Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile [Empty High slot] Small Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer I Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst I [Empty Rig slot] Tactics: Have a dude with a L4 locator agent find a ganker so you know where to start looking. You can also use zkills to try and locate them based on recent kill history. Once gank fleet is located, follow them. If they are already flashy, engage as you can. If not, wait until then. If you can’t figure out how to fight them with the above fits well, you need to learn to PvP. Bear in mind, this is a harassment/revenge fleet. You may stop some ganks, but your success rate will also be determined by if the peeps actually fit a tank. You can also replace the kessie/condors with atron/rifters. Just know that you’ll need more crucs cause if they turn on you, you’ll want to switch to tracking speed disrupt and speed tank. If they are using void, they’ll have a really hard time hitting you. 1. Gate Camp Busters [Talos, AG Blaster Hull PvP] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Reinforced Bulkheads II Reinforced Bulkheads II 10MN Afterburner II Tracking Computer II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L Medium Transverse Bulkhead II Medium Transverse Bulkhead II Medium Transverse Bulkhead II Hobgoblin II x5 [Vigil, AG Gate Camp Assist] F-89 Compact Signal Amplifier F-89 Compact Signal Amplifier 5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive Alumel-Wired Enduring Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script Phased Scoped Target Painter Phased Scoped Target Painter Phased Scoped Target Painter [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] Small Particle Dispersion Projector I Small Particle Dispersion Projector I Small Particle Dispersion Projector I Hobgoblin I x1 Tactics: Have those Talos hump the gate. If the gankers are camping, like X-100 does, then just pre-target with your ships. Spider the Vigils around the gate at around 70-80km. You want them well out of range and just painting their hearts out. Depending on crew size, you may wanna use some crucs fit like the ones above. Simply focus fire with Talos/Vigils and clear ships as fast as you can. Heat guns for max DPS. Now you could go full DPS on the talos, but if they turn on you that is also a win for them. You want that sweet hull magic to work in your favor. TLDR You have to understand, once the ganker fires, the timer is set. It becomes all Omae wa mou shinderu. This type of PvP is specialized and it allows you to fit certain ways because of it. You don’t need warp scrams cause they won’t fly away once they’ve engaged. So that frees up slots. Most won’t even move or orbit, so webs aren’t really needed either. Now, the pursuit fleet is a much harder engagement, but certainly doable and fun and cheap. Even the gate camp set up can be cheaper depending if you just wanna use cruisers and frigs. Can’t say no one ever helped you. Now maybe find some friends and try this stuff out huh? But I’m betting you won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 10:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/289 "2021-11-26T10:47:23Z")
Ive been moving Orcas for days and I havent died once. That doesnt sound like enough to me. Anyone? Bueller? ---
**Author:** ![Ogeko\_Nightwolf](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ogeko_nightwolf/32/401704_2.png) [@Ogeko\_Nightwolf](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ogeko_Nightwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 11:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/290 "2021-11-26T11:33:46Z")
Thank you for you extensive and thoughtful reply, @Xucca 🤗 I don’t have contra-arguments but I just remembered one interesting mechanics from the X3 game: you attack a ship, and before it blows up you have a choice of destroying it completely or letting the crew to leave it for you to take. There I was continuously hunting for such and had a huge fleet 😃 In EVE it would translate even into more interesting dynamics. Those with more experience could take down and acquire cooler bling ships, and those with small ships and less experience (let’s just say like Brave Newbies) could team up and start re-possesing high-end ships from the vets 😛 I mean, having a choice of fighting and not destroying something for getting a real cool prize could re-vitalize the PVP scene. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 11:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/291 "2021-11-26T11:58:59Z")
You can already do this. Just open a chat with your target, and negotiate a ransom in which they eject from their ship, and you pay them a portion of its value after you secure it. ---
**Author:** ![Ogeko\_Nightwolf](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ogeko_nightwolf/32/401704_2.png) [@Ogeko\_Nightwolf](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ogeko_Nightwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 12:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/292 "2021-11-26T12:15:49Z")
Oh, that’s interesting! Never heard of such in EVE before. BUT how can one secure a ship while being in space? Can you make a contract while undocked? On the other hand, you always get a portion of the ship’s value from the insurance somehow - even if the ship is uninsured. But I think this works only with a bit more expensive ships (maybe starting with T1 cruizers?) ---
**Author:** ![Avaelica\_Kuershin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/avaelica_kuershin/32/478139_2.png) [@Avaelica\_Kuershin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Avaelica_Kuershin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 12:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/293 "2021-11-26T12:19:08Z")
I am quite sure other players have been losing ships to compensate for your successes. It always seems to be _other_ players… Maybe my luck will turn next time I undock and Safety will find me. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 12:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/294 "2021-11-26T12:26:37Z")
It’s a trust-based system. I get you into hull, open a chat, and negotiate an inverse-ransom. We agree on a percentage of the value you would get back. There’s no guarantee I will follow through (personally I always do), but it’s not like you can lose any more by ejecting than by exploding. If you’re carrying cargo, or using expensive modules, getting 30% back could be significantly more than the insurance payout for the hull itself, and I’d make over 70% of the value of the ship instead of 50% of the average module drop value and 0% hull value. This requires having an extra pilot on standby to fly the ship away from the scene. Small ships aren’t bothered with because of the effort involved, so anything BC-sized or smaller (unless T2/faction) doesn’t get ransomed, and is simply destroyed. I’ve ransomed a few hundred ships like this, including Orcas and freighters. Mostly during the first decade of the game, when the PvP scene was considerably different from today. There’s also the regular ransom of course, in which you pay me to let you go with your ship intact. This is the prevalent version. Inverse-ransoms most often get used when the target can’t afford a normal ransom. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 2:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/295 "2021-11-26T14:26:56Z")
Don’t even need that: a Griffin with a full row of Gal ECM, distortion amps and rigs does the trick nicely. Just hanging at a gate is enough to be annoying. If it is a single casual ganker who’s sitting on the gate just target him, let him know, and when you hear the ship scanner sound that’s your cue to get ready. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 2:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/296 "2021-11-26T14:29:47Z")
Sure enough, once the talk got around to anti-ganking, Gix jumped in to start the troll-spam rolling. We’ll see how that goes. (To their credit, up to this point Destiny at least has been arguing their position in good faith, although misguided and factually incorrect.) I don’t reply directly to trolls in general, but there are the usual high-sec PvPer misconceptions in his post. Let’s call them starebears, because really sitting in space staring at a gate for hours waiting for an easy target is kind of their speed. When I said weaksauce PvP in EVE is about hunting easy targets in safe space, I don’t mean high sec is and should be safe. I mean it is **safe for the gankers**. Gankers are very much about avoiding any kind of risk that doesn’t result in them scoring an easy and affordable kill. High sec is safe for most gankers, because they can hang around forever and not be shot at by all the people that are much better at actual combat PvP than they are. It’s safe for gankers because there’s no real incentive to attack them, and there are actual _dis_incentives in the form of Concord and status hits. So starebears cower in high sec specifically because they’re **safe** there. Even if they were huntable, there’s no point to it. There’s no payoff. Gankers are looking for either a financial payoff, or are “salt mining”, because they’re the kind of people who need to make someone else angry and upset in order to feel validated. Since they’re in cheap, easily replaced ships, with no cargo of value, the loot drops aren’t worth the hunt, and there’s no other standings or benefit to it. If CCP really wanted a healthy and viable PvP ecosystem, they’d implement an actually workable bounty system (not hard for a competent design team), they’d implement a criminal rating system that doesn’t just put a flag on gankers for 15 minutes before they can go right back to ganking, and they would put an economic incentive in place for hunting pirate ships. I don’t believe high sec should be safe, and I don’t even think ganking should be removed or reduced. It’s just that viable counter-play options should be introduced so there are more active roles to fill than starebear ganking. As one example, if every ship needed a ‘power core’ module to operate. A power core would be sized according to the size of your ship relative to it’s max DPS. So the more DPS your ship puts out relative to it’s size, the larger and more expensive a power core needed to power it. Power cores would be sturdy (like a pod) and always drop. That way, every ship loss would include at least one drop of significant value, even more so in the case of gank-fit ships. Now you have at least a minor economic incentive to hunt gankers. It’s just the notion of an idea (not a full writeup) because I learned quite some time ago that CCP really isn’t interested at all in player ideas that are better or different from their own. If you want a healthy ecosystem you need a holistic approach, not just one-off changes. Standings, criminal status, bounties, loot drops, the whole nine yards. It could actually be done in no more than 2 of the old ‘expansion’ style releases, but CCP hasn’t shown any interest in actually improving the core game in almost a decade now. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 2:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/297 "2021-11-26T14:30:34Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > when the PvP scene was considerably different from today. So true, sadly. I never did what you described, just seemed too much hassle trying to deal with a nervous player who’s English may not be good enough to convey the message. Pay or explode is just so much easier 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/298 "2021-11-26T14:39:39Z")
Sometimes they simply can’t afford the ransom (e.g. those cases where the idiot puts everything into an untanked hauler or freighter and flies it to Jita). That’s when the inverse-ransom makes the most sense. I have some interesting stories of trying to negotiate ransoms, with the target straight-up lying to me about what they have in their cargo. Now, I _know_ what they have, because they’ve been scanned with the scouting alt. It’s kind of funny how they dig their holes deeper while I prod them by saying stuff like “are you SURE you don’t have two Ravens inside your cargo? I could swear I saw you fly some Ravens before!” and they will just keep trying to ■■■■■■■■ me until I finally tell them “you know I scanned you like fifteen minutes ago, right?” and jack up the ransom price by another 10-20%. Carebears are pathological liars. :V ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 2:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/299 "2021-11-26T14:41:29Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > actually workable bounty system Sadly, any bounty system “that works” is by default going to be gamed and all you’d really be doing is handing isk to people you don’t like. If it’s worthwhile to kill someone who has a bounty, it’s worthwhile for the person with that bounty to shoot it off himself using a friend or alt. There are just too many loop holes to fix and by the time you accomplished that the whole system becomes unusable. But if you have ideas let’s hear them. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 2:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/300 "2021-11-26T14:57:52Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > Sadly, any bounty system “that works” is by default going to be gamed and all you’d really be doing is handing isk to people you don’t like. Far too limited a view, it’s the typical stance of people who are used to the way things are and don’t want them fixed. CCP almost had it working before, and even that was enough to get the starebears complaining so that CCP took it out altogether. If the bounty payout is tied to a percentage of the value of the drops, then you can’t “make profit” from shooting yourself since you will always lose more than you gain in bounty. You can also tie bounties to having gained a certain standing or reputation with a bounty corp. CCP just set the payouts too low last time (which was still too much for the starebears), and also has a quite poor system in place for estimating item value. That would need to be improved. A system doesn’t have to be 100% perfect to work. It just needs to not be massively exploitable. And as said previously, it needs to be part of an ecosystem where the various parts support each other, not just one-off ideas, badly implemented by CCP and then later thrown away because they just don’t care as long as the subs are coming in. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984.md?page=15)