# I regret to inform that we still don't die enough **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** pvp\ **Created:** [November 15, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984 "2021-11-15T16:34:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/401 "2021-11-28T15:24:04Z")
> [@Emira\_Sultana](#): > > Because the human survival instincts dictate we avoid dying, even if it’s in a video game. Immersion makes it so that the survival instincts stranslate to our clones so we do everything in order to not die. This is something out there, far from my knowledge reach. But as usual, my take: As the scenario increases in immersive quality, the environment’s entropy decays towards eden. In other words, the better the quality, the more protective we become, as we just fall in love with all and increasingly avoid destruction. See “Norsemen” the series. Have a look at the slave named Kark. Knowing one’s place is difficult --if not counterintuitive-- to perpetuate. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/402 "2021-11-28T15:30:29Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > That is just nonsense. Nothing could be easier than ganking. Not even mining. > > I mean…ALL I have to do to gank is go to a 0.5 system and blast a Venture to bits. There’s no rule that says ganking _has_ to make a profit. I might simply want to have a good laugh. > > If I was as obsessed with ‘kills’ as some are…that is what I’d spend all day doing. It could not be easier. Sure, if you cherry-pick your argument. Ganking is as easy as always when you’re ganking T1 mining frigates that die in one or two volleys regardless of what you use. But the moment you step up to ganking any sort of target that’s not paper-thin and doesn’t cost 250,000 ISK, the calculus changes, and a significant increase in difficulty can be observed through the years. By all means, if you want to gank new players in Ventures, you should go ahead and do it (just don’t do it in starter systems). But there’s a _reason_ why no one does that. It’s the same reason why the average value of a gank is somewhere around 150-200 million ISK. I just checked the first half-dozen pages of Venture kills, and I only see about 15 out of 300 that seem to be ganks (some can’t be confirmed and might’ve been baiting kills). > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > ‘Natural selection’ is just pure nonsense…as it is precisely what gankers dont want ! Natural selection is precisely the change that makes it harder for the lion to catch the wildebeast. But you **don’t** want the wildebeast to be able to run 1% faster or the lion poacher to be 1% more timely and accurate. Bad analogy. The lion poacher isn’t competing with the lion in the same habitat. The CONCORD mechanic, while necessary for the game, is an external factor to EVE’s gameplay. It takes a player function (defense) and outsources it to an NPC. Asking for CONCORD to be buffed to the point where it’s an absolute deterrent (i.e. ganking becomes practically impossible) is akin to asking for the game to play itself for you. Which, I guess, is something that miners actually want, so I’m not surprised. Also, if this is the goal, there’s no reason to even mess with CONCORD mechanics at all. Just remove the ability to set safety to red in high-sec, and you don’t even need CONCORD. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/403 "2021-11-28T15:33:01Z")
> [@Emira\_Sultana](#): > > Yes. It would be very neat to risk ships for empire border protection or escorting a hauler or providing security for miners or something. > Also, are those empires _ever_ at war? Where are the space battlefields where they duke it out? 🤔 > But wasting my isk and modules and ships just for some nebulous economic reasons that only CCP can benefit from? NO. You nailed it. Most people would have no issue having their ships destroyed in some grand battle, empires colliding, and so on. But ganking is the complete reverse. It is not fighting for king and country in some epic and glorious conflict like some of the adverts for Eve show. Ganking is just some CCP encouraged local Mafia protection racket that requires X amount of stuff to be destroyed and is quite happy to let Eve’s equivalent of bored script kiddies do it because they can’t do real combat. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/404 "2021-11-28T15:37:08Z")
Ok so apparently, asteroids are harder to find than Ventures. So we need to make Ventures harder to find. Hmm good job CCP is working on that right now apparently! ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/405 "2021-11-28T15:39:34Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > But the moment you step up to ganking any sort of target that’s not paper-thin and doesn’t cost 250,000 ISK, the calculus changes, and a significant increase in difficulty can be observed through the years. Again you are talking nonsense. zKillboard shows Procs ( and ones with shielding, etc, at that ) taken out by as few as 6 ships. The dynamic is _nowhere near_ the point where gankers simply wouldn’t be able to field enough ships to do a gank. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/406 "2021-11-28T15:41:11Z")
Yes, but at one point it only took 1 ship, and the ganker even got an insurance payout after losing their ship to CONCORD. ---
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/407 "2021-11-28T15:49:22Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Nah…the real argument… Its the gankers who are the real carebears, wailing at anything that even remotely smacks of making their already cushy lifestyle even the tiniest bit harder. I always thought that some gamestyles are the purist carebears holding a gun. But you put it much better, yes. I see gankers as vulture wannabe’s that justify their inability to engage an unpredictable outcome under the void pretension of removing the unfit. But it deserves zero fu\*ks, as we already know that it’s layout and deployment scenario --ganking-- is already omnipresent and there are not many options or a foreseeable appearance of a choice in the near future. Ganking is hardwired in gaming. ---
**Author:** ![Emira\_Sultana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/emira_sultana/32/298445_2.png) [@Emira\_Sultana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Emira_Sultana)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/408 "2021-11-28T15:52:11Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > But ganking is the complete reverse. It is not fighting for king and country in some epic and glorious conflict like some of the adverts for Eve show. Ganking is just some CCP encouraged local Mafia protection racket that requires X amount of stuff to be destroyed and is quite happy to let Eve’s equivalent of bored script kiddies do it because they can’t do real combat I don’t know if _they_ can’t do real combat ( I think they can and have ) but why would they when the game serves them kills on a silver platter? There is a reason why those encounters are called “ganks” and not “combats”. I wish that the game could give us real fights to wager our ships into, like the opportunity to fight in space battles and conflicts between empires where empire fleets and capsuleers duke it out on empire borders or contested constellations and capsuleers can join an empire fleet against another empire’s fleet… There supposedly are powerful empires in EVE but I haven’t yet flown by a full empire fleet. What gives? Where’s the military? Where’s the intelligence agencies? Where’re the scouts? And Faction Warfare is just between capsuleers so it doesn’t count as “empires fleets duking it out”. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/409 "2021-11-28T15:54:58Z")
Most gankers are alts of high-sec/low-sec pirates and null-sec vets. About 10-20% are new players who were brought into the game and joined their friends in ganking _first,_ and may or may not branch out to other types of gameplay in time. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/411 "2021-11-28T16:03:18Z")
> [@Xucca](#): > > I see gankers as vulture wannabe’s that justify their inability to engage an unpredictable outcome under the void pretension of removing the unfit. Oh…tell me about it. I’ve been making the point for weeks that the whole ‘lions vs wildebeast’ thing of ‘natural selection’ is pure nonsense invented by a bunch of crooks to justify their deeds and cover their inability to do the Eve equivalent of ’ go out and get a _real_ job ’ doing proper combat PvP. Because, of course, even the most psychotic of gankers likely still feels a sense of guilt about what is effectively theft. So…they have to come up with some glorious ‘justification’. Yeah…right…they are not your local burglar sneaking in through a window…oh no…they are glorious roaring lions ! And they are not the local Mafia…oh no…they are engaging in Darwinian evolution and weeding out the bad genes. I mean…yes…of course gankers are vulture wannabes who are so useless at real PvP that they need 23 people’s uselessness all gathered together just to take out a defenceless Procurer. But they’ll spin this with the usual ‘lions vs wildebeast’ nonsense and hope that nobody sees the reality. ---
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/412 "2021-11-28T16:03:33Z")
I find this a more bannable exploit than keybinding. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/413 "2021-11-28T16:06:11Z")
How so? ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/414 "2021-11-28T16:07:31Z")
> [@Emira\_Sultana](#): > > There is a reason why those encounters are called “ganks” and not “combats”. Indeed…at the end of the day, the very name says all that needs to be said. ---
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/415 "2021-11-28T16:09:31Z")
Alts ruin the possible ability to abide a toon’s own storyline. I love it when peeps openly state that “you can get even, look! it’s easy, just take this fitting and do this and that and and and”… while the ganker comes online every so often. It’s a way of me saying that ganking should have longer lasting effects --if any–. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 4:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/416 "2021-11-28T16:13:20Z")
EVE is a very alt-centric game. You can’t really take away alt usage from one aspect of it without doing it for the rest. I don’t _like_ that alts are so prevalent (and effectively _required_ just to not be handicapped and achieve full efficiency), but that’s how the game was developed from the very beginning, so equating alt usage to a “bannable exploit” is somewhat of a stretch for _any_ activity. ---
**Author:** ![Xucca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xucca/32/373499_2.png) [@Xucca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xucca)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 4:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/417 "2021-11-28T16:21:49Z")
No, no… it’s quite alright… I just see that jumping in/out should also be part of the toon’s own storyline and affect it’s presence. Take the typewriter’s algorythm… It detects how good you are as you progress and adjusts the challenge level as you progress. If you go off/on, it still stores your prior actions and reacts accordingly. I don’t mean to void alts. I’m implying that some actions are worse for the game than keybinding, which I find futile, BTW. Maybe it’s a mediocre analogy on my part… Call it sarcasm, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/418 "2021-11-28T16:27:34Z")
It doesn’t really matter which character is doing the shooting, since kill rights only last 30 days, and sec status can be bought/farmed back even faster than that. And being a ganker doesn’t make you persona non grata in any high-end and respected corporations and alliances (only trashy carebear outfits would reject you because you gank). And hardly anyone role-plays and views their characters as anything more than tools to be picked out and used according to the situation, so the whole “storyline” thing is pretty much meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/419 "2021-11-28T16:30:10Z")
> [@Emira\_Sultana](#): > > I wish that the game could give us real fights to wager our ships into, like the opportunity to fight in space battles and conflicts between empires where empire fleets and capsuleers duke it out on empire borders or contested constellations and capsuleers can join an empire fleet against another empire’s fleet… There supposedly are powerful empires in EVE but I haven’t yet flown by a full empire fleet. What gives? Where’s the military? Where’s the intelligence agencies? Where’re the scouts? That stuff does exist…there’s been massive battles, I think largely Goonswarm and sections of what is known as Imperium. There are maps where you can see the latest status of all the factions. This stuff is what should be explained to noobs on entry. I had to go look it all up outside of Eve. I’d imagine it is what most people were lured into Eve for ! I mean…does anyone _really_ join Eve just to sit and watch a mining laser ? But here’s the thing…and in some ways Destiny is right…its a path one gets funnelled into by Eve itself. Yes, there is the ’ I’m just getting ready for PvP’ element. But that is not at all surprising. You learn from day 1 in Eve that you are a defenceless nobody. You don’t want to be one of the endless noobs in Rookie Help typing ’ I lost my ship and have no ISK’. So you mine a bit…and a bit more…and a bit more…and end up becoming a miner. I think for most that is just a temporary phase…certainly for me it has been. But there is also another curious dynamic at work, that Destiny has overlooked. I can bring masses, billions, of ISK into Eve by buying PLEX. Heck…£10 buys me more ISK than I have mined in 2 months. So why waste 2 months of one’s life watching a laser ? But I still mine half the time. Why ? Because there is a curious psychology whereby one feels one has to have ‘earned’ at least some of one’s in-game money. Bringing in PLEX feels almost like cheating. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 4:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/420 "2021-11-28T16:37:00Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > That stuff does exist…there’s been massive battles, I think largely Goonswarm and sections of what is known as Imperium. There are maps where you can see the latest status of all the factions. This stuff is what should be explained to noobs on entry. I had to go look it all up outside of Eve. I’d imagine it is what most people were lured into Eve for ! I mean…does anyone _really_ join Eve just to sit and watch a mining laser ? About 15% of the game’s population lives in null-sec, of which about half is composed of renters there purely for the PvE, plus a few more percent from bot accounts from the residents. About 75-80% of the game’s population lives in high-sec, of which probably a good 30-40% are dedicated miners, and many others who mine part-time while also doing PvE. So yes, a significant chunk of players in fact do join the game to watch a mining laser. > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > But here’s the thing…and in some ways Destiny is right…its a path one gets funnelled into by Eve itself. Yes, there is the ’ I’m just getting ready for PvP’ element. But that is not at all surprising. You learn from day 1 in Eve that you are a defenceless nobody. You don’t want to be one of the endless noobs in Rookie Help typing ’ I lost my ship and have no ISK’. So you mine a bit…and a bit more…and a bit more…and end up becoming a miner. Miners most often _start out_ as miners. > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > I can bring masses, billions, of ISK into Eve by buying PLEX. Heck…£10 buys me more ISK than I have mined in 2 months. So why waste 2 months of one’s life watching a laser ? But I still mine half the time. Why ? Because people either don’t want to pay anything for a video game, are too afraid to do anything but the most risk-less activity they can imagine, or are too stupid to perform the mental calculations and realize the opportunity cost of their chosen career. HTH ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/421 "2021-11-28T16:41:33Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > EVE is a very alt-centric game. It may be, if you have been in Eve for some time and have massive skills in first alt and can thus afford to go weeks training a new alt. But when I stopped the skills queue for Cilla Cybin so I could train up an alt…I just ended up with neither benefitting. And I did not want to fork out 600m ISK to have 2 alts training simultaneously. It would really help if CCP scrapped the dynamic altogether of preventing multiple alt training without such cost…as they’ll make that money back anyway with all the ‘stuff’ the alt buys. As it is, my alts are just in limbo…being used as spies who fly about in shuttles. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984.md?page=19) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984.md?page=21)