# I regret to inform that we still don't die enough **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** pvp\ **Created:** [November 15, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984 "2021-11-15T16:34:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Jin\_Endares](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jin_endares/32/413291_2.png) [@Jin\_Endares](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jin_Endares)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/542 "2021-12-02T21:34:02Z")
Keep this in mind too: Going on now for nearly 2 years the entire world’s dynamic of work and life has been turned on it’s ear (and it doesn’t look like that is now ever going to change 😪) Part of that is more people are working from home or remote locations than ever before. That means potentially more people can be logged in now during the day. You can’t go on PVP roams or do gate camps or hacking sessions while working, but you can do mining. Just cozy up to a belt in a tanky miner and go with it. It’s better than not doing anything. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/543 "2021-12-02T21:49:20Z")
That’s an impressive amount of gas lighting and half truths. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/544 "2021-12-02T21:55:24Z")
Should I read it? Such a terse reply makes me feel like I’m missing out on some gold. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/545 "2021-12-02T22:24:41Z")
It’s like being waterboarded by someone who keeps denying EVE is a pvp sandbox, ad nauseam, carefully sprinkled with some semi facts but then very deliberately omitting facts, just to suit a narrative. No point in trying to have a discussion with someone who’s dishonest from the get go, it’ll just result in a troll/rage war that’ll end with an ISD post. Wasted effort, just point and laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/546 "2021-12-02T22:31:07Z")
That’s OK, I keep making this point: > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > start focusing on ways to add interesting and worthwhile PvP back into the game and the high-sec gankers keep drawing the conclusion that I’m a carebear who wants all PvP removed from the game. So clearly, part of being a ganker in EVE is all about being able to fool even yourself. When the gankers stop being terrified of the idea of real ship combat in EVE, maybe we’ll be able to make some progress on convincing CCP that EVE players are ready for a real challenge. Instead of, you know, needing their targets tripped, blindfolded and held down for them before they’re willing to risk taking a shot. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/547 "2021-12-02T22:32:39Z")
I’m not a ganker. I bet your “worthwhile pvp” has something to do with duels at the sun or some other weird honoure fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/548 "2021-12-02T22:58:10Z")
Ok I read it. _Shudder_ ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/3/0/e/30ec1b65b24ce9615f9a3b4f985c469e0a6fa9c7.gif) Well, that was a _massive_ dose of composition fallacy for which I wasn’t prepared. I’m already approaching LD50 from reading DMC’s “historical facts” about ganking and PvP whenever those pop up. But at least he’s not an orbiter, and posts useful stuff some of the time. > [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > I’m not a ganker. > > I bet your “worthwhile pvp” has something to do with duels at the sun or some other weird honoure fantasy. All of that “worthwhile PvP” is possible, and has _always_ been possible, since day one anyway. But there’s a reason why hardly anyone engages in it. But let’s ignore the facts that the “interesting and worthwhile PvP” that needs to be “added **back** into the game” (emphasis mine) was just as non-consensual in 2006 as any PvP is today (if not _considerably_ more so), and the only difference between then and now is that much fewer people whinged and complained about it 15 years ago. Frankly I’d like to _see_ some of this “worthwhile PvP” be put into the game. I think the forums would be even more interesting when all the people that keep asking for it on my behalf **still** refuse to engage in any of it, while trying to mock me for not giving a rat’s ass about it because I claim to be a PvPer and thus I should like it by default and am a hypocrite for not taking part in it, apparently. I want to add this: I am going to go out into low-sec and engage in some “worthwhile” and “honorable” PvP content as soon as a carebear contracts me a fully fitted ship to do so _at no cost to myself._ No? Well tough ■■■■, then. I’m not going to buy PLEX for the privilege of paying these people for my “war materiel” just to not hurt their vidya game feelings. They’re not going to have their cake and eat it too while I volunteer to do 100% of the paying and 100% of the losing. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/549 "2021-12-02T23:06:12Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Frankly I’d like to _see_ some of this “worthwhile PvP” be put into the game. It’s mostly just empty words like “we should just end world hunger”, without factual and achievable ideas it’s a meaningless statement. I bet “meaningful” means somethingsomething fair fight somethingsomething. Funny bit is that I still to this day do “meaningfull pvp” in high sec, minus the solo wardecs. Can flipping can still work, mission baiting certainly works and same with suspect baiting. But I bet carebears wouldn’t see that as meaningful, to me it’s very interactive where you effectively have a silent conversation going on with someone who might be on the brink of making a bad decision. It’s why I personally don’t gank (any more). I did it in a distant past for profit but found it boring and unfulfilling: there’s no real interaction happening other than “b00m” and possible hate mail afterwards. I’ve ganked for “personal reasons” (people who annoyed me or for area control). The only ganking I’ve done in the last 5 years or so is when some newer player I’m helping wants to try it out so we have a go and even that hardly ever happens. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 11:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/550 "2021-12-02T23:12:26Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > I’m not a ganker. Good thing I didn’t call you one then. But at least we’ve now moved on from being completely wrong (“someone who keeps denying EVE is a pvp sandbox”) and moved on to “you’ve got no idea what you’re actually disagreeing with”. So that’s some progress right there. There are a couple ways of making PvP worthwhile to certain audiences. The easy, cheap, low-effort way is to provide opportunities for people in combat/PvP fits to fight and win against essentially unarmed opponents. That’s a large part of what EVE has to offer. (PvP in this case meaning ships actually fit for combat fighting other combat-ready ships, as opposed to hauling or mining or exploring ships. Just in case some people have lost sight of what actual PvP is really about.) The other way is to make workable systems that encourage players to engage in actual PvP, combat fit ship vs combat fit ship. (That means ships fit with reasonably effective weapons and a decent chance of fighting back, since some of the EVE “PvP” crowd can’t get that part straight either.) This doesn’t mean one-off duels. It doesn’t mean the 2% of the EVE player base who roam low-sec or null and do small-gang combat (although of course that’s part of it). A very small percent of players can derive what feels like meaningful combat from the current game. That doesn’t in any way show that the game itself is structured properly for it. It means putting systems and mechanics in EVE that offer more to the average player than simply wasting time and ISK trying to engage in PvP. While there are currently Abyssal arenas available, that’s a very limited and somewhat uncreative implementation. Better solutions would be things like fixing Faction Warfare, implementing Resource Wars the way it could have/should have been done, setting up more interesting contract types like protection contracts, and making bounty hunting/white knighting a viable career option. There’s no need to remove ganking or asymmetric PvP or ambushes or gatecamping or any of those, they can all stay as is. The point is to add _more_ options rather than keep relying on the lowest-hanging fruit of the PvP world to drive conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 11:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/551 "2021-12-02T23:13:38Z")
Those aren’t examples of “meaningful PvP.” “Meaningful PvP” is when a gankbear “puts their money where their mouth is” and takes a ship to where all the **~R~E~A~L~** PvPers live (which is apparently sov-null full of renter bot operators covered by a super-cap umbrella) to engage in **~R~E~A~L~** PvP combat to prove that they’re not a no-skill gankbaby hiding behind CONCORD protection in the starter zone. Well, that’s the kind of definitions we get when people who have no personal experience in a major facet of gameplay decide to provide valuable input on what it was, is, and should be. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/552 "2021-12-02T23:14:16Z")
I’ve been doing it wrong all these years! ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 11:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/553 "2021-12-02T23:16:32Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > encourage players to engage in actual PvP You can’t encourage carebears to pvp, they’re too busy with “numbers go up” and “leave me alone, why can’t you leave me alone. I paid for this game, my friend is a GM and he’ll get you banned”. You know this so why even bring it up, it’s just dishonest to even pretend that would work. CCP tried it with FW and look how that turned out. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/554 "2021-12-02T23:29:30Z")
> [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > You can’t encourage carebears to pvp Whenever these people ask for “meaningful PvP,” it’s never because _they_ want it. Their arguments always entail speaking for players who aren’t them to convince them that that’s what _they_ want. It’s just a red herring intended to make the arguments more palatable and bring into question the credibility of anyone who disagrees, i.e. “I want meaningful PvP, don’t you want meaningful PvP too? what kind of PvPer are you if you don’t want meaningful PvP?” But they would never actually engage in it if it were to be provided and available; that’s not what they’re here for. That argument about all the “hundreds of millions of players out there doing shooters, MOBAs, battle royales, survival games etc.” is laughable because it ignores the fundamental premise of all those games, which doesn’t have the _option_ to engage in anything but fighting the enemy team in a deathmatch battle. I find it amazingly hard to believe that if they added some kind of resource-farming mechanic to a game like Battlefield, that there wouldn’t be a bunch of people playing those games just to do _that_ specific thing, and then complaining if anyone from the opposing force disrupted their grind. Because let me tell you, I have thousands of hours in Planetside 2, and countless stories about being cursed out by players I killed/interrupted who were farming certs through damage/repair cycles with alts/friends in random non-active sections of the map. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 11:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/555 "2021-12-02T23:39:44Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > That argument about all the “hundreds of millions of players out there doing shooters, MOBAs, battle royales, survival games etc.” is laughable because it ignores the fundamental premise of all those games, which doesn’t have the _option_ to engage in anything but fighting Not only that but in those games there is no real loss, it’s meaningless. Hence my “half truths and omitting facts” remark. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 7:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/556 "2021-12-03T07:19:58Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Also fill us in on how people are getting to and from Abyssal pockets without being PvP targets, especially since the traces are scannable. Wut. They can run them in umbrella land with no fear or anywhere in high sec as long as they are smart. Only the dumb ones are getting ganked ROFL. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > I won’t even bother correcting you that wardecs still exist in high sec, Lets not front. War decs are nothing now LOL. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > You keep talking about the ‘new generation’ of players who will avoid PvP at any cost. I suppose you mean those hundreds of millions of players out there doing shooters, MOBAs, battle royales, survival games etc. And the fact that nearly all the people who played EVE 15 years ago are still out there playing combat games. They just dumped EVE because it’s not really a combat game anymore. It’s barely even PvP. It’s just ganking and ambushes. LOL games in which death means nothing. You seriously comparing EVE to COD? The whole reason peeps are trying to avoid PvP in EVE is case they can actually lose something 😃 > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > real ship combat in EVE What is “real ship combat”? Are the catas fake or > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Instead of, you know, needing their targets tripped, blindfolded and held down for them before they’re willing to risk taking a shot. They tie themselves up. LOL Cilla says she goes 10 mins or more without a d-scan ROFL. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > combat fit ship vs combat fit ship Every ship is a combat fit. But not every ship’s role is combat. Learn to EVE kthx. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > It means putting systems and mechanics in EVE that offer more to the average player than simply wasting time and ISK trying to engage in PvP. Like what? Free SRP for everyone? ROFL. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Because let me tell you, I have thousands of hours in Planetside 2, and countless stories about being cursed out by players I killed/interrupted who were farming certs through damage/repair cycles with alts/friends in random non-active sections of the map. You just unlocked a memory I forgot I had. > [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > Not only that but in those games there is no real loss, it’s meaningless. Hence my “half truths and omitting facts” remark. PREACH IT FROM THE MOUTAINTOP SON. Er. Sorry I was excited. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 7:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/557 "2021-12-03T07:44:15Z")
> [@Gix\_Firebrand](#): > > Lets not front. War decs are nothing now have been “fixed” to create “meaningful” PvP content LOL. FTFY ---
**Author:** ![Etch\_Masuka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/etch_masuka/32/468743_2.png) [@Etch\_Masuka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Etch_Masuka)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 7:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/558 "2021-12-03T07:56:01Z")
@Kezrai_Charzai Can you do me a solid and provide some criteria for what you think makes PVP “worthwhile” or meaningful or whatever terminology we are using? It feels like you are using that language to cover up “PVP should not have loss” and/or “All PVP should be fair”. ---
**Author:** ![una\_noche\_mas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/una_noche_mas/32/296902_2.png) [@una\_noche\_mas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/una_noche_mas)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 8:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/559 "2021-12-03T08:52:36Z")
It is not possible to make “just dying” possible by changing the game in a way to induce **Risk Aversion** ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 9:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/560 "2021-12-03T09:09:02Z")
Some of you may know me from doing the “Hub Zero” adventures ,it is this type of venture that will attract a constant amount of PVP. It was mainly due to my big mouth why so many wanted to attack me and our group. I think the issue might be that the landscape has had some significant changes and that only a few people are prepared to live in places like Stain due to safety. We also have the groups of pvp’er who will only ever engage when they are 100% guaranteed the win, even if the fight looks evenly matched they won’t engage because they want the flawless victory. Now, I have seen many people adopt the above playstyle and the long term effect of this will be more or less what the OP is talking about. We have almost reached the point of stagnation where it’s only the haulers, bling ships, lone wolves, and the people who haven’t scouted getting killed and there are only a handful of real skillful fights going on. So to summarize PVP stagnation is due to the attitude of the players as well as the changes that have been imposed on the game. When I try to make the game interesting for a few people and bring a different gameplay style there are always lots of people ready to troll me to oblivion and hate and spread lies (which are of course valid tactics) till there was nothing left. The issue is some of you go in too hard on people like me till we lose enthusiasm and then a short time later it’s those same ones complaining the game is boring and stagnant and they try to blame it on game changes alone without realising they are part of the issue. I guess my point is if you have an enemy where the odds are clearly in your favour maybe try not to kill all their ships in a couple of hours and try killing all of their ships over a few months. ---
**Author:** ![una\_noche\_mas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/una_noche_mas/32/296902_2.png) [@una\_noche\_mas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/una_noche_mas)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2021, 9:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/561 "2021-12-03T09:46:56Z")
> [@Aaron](#): > > When I try to make the game interesting for a few people and bring a different gameplay style there are always lots of people ready to troll me to oblivion and hate and spread lies (which are of course valid tactics) till there was nothing left. The issue is some of you go in too hard on people like me till we lose enthusiasm and then a short time later it’s those same ones complaining the game is boring and stagnant and they try to blame it on game changes alone without realising they are part of the issue. That was something i have been working to tackle last couple of years… and yes … it can be tackled esp for the new generations… But, on the way… the part i have mentioned up there is extremely hard to compansate … And about your last paragraph… i know many good old PvP ers agsinst this idea and they have a reason to not to do that. And i do understand their reasoning… i will ingame mail this character of yours … and would like to contact you . Reason is i can relate quite a lot with the ideas you shared in first paragraph, and i would like to hear more about what is in your mind around different playstyle you have mentioned. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984.md?page=26) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984.md?page=28)