# I regret to inform that we still don't die enough **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** pvp\ **Created:** [November 15, 2021, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984 "2021-11-15T16:34:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 7:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1125 "2021-12-24T07:36:02Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > How is it not PvP? OK so its PvP. The consequence of which means that the other half of the ‘P’ is the hunted…which also means that every miner who undocks from a station is doing PvP. And as miners mine more than gankers gank…miners do more PvP than gankers. So really you gankers are just lazy and not doing enough PvP. I mean you fire at someone for 10 seconds and think that is your PvP for the day…while miners have to be alert and hunted all day long as the other half of the PvP. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 7:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1126 "2021-12-24T07:41:12Z")
> [@Gix\_Firebrand](#): > > _in best Viola Davis impression_ ain’t you tired? Of you posting gibberish ? No…never. I have to have my daily fix of Gix posting nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 7:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1127 "2021-12-24T07:42:01Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > miners do more PvP than gankers. Yes, but they are bad at it. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 9:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1128 "2021-12-24T09:51:30Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Of you posting gibberish ? No…never. I have to have my daily fix of Gix posting nonsense. You’ve already admitted local is all you need. Is it my fault you’re continuing to self tattle? ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 10:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1129 "2021-12-24T10:03:53Z")
Imma haul some cargo while y’alls is arguing. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 6:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1130 "2021-12-24T18:06:52Z")
Ok Perhaps we can make a summary for this thread, - Those who have limited experience with PVP should aim to get a better understanding of it and try it. This point has been brought forward by many and really deserves it’s own thread. - Data can’t tell us everything about why something happens, it is a snapshot of the current situation. With analysing anything all aspects of it must be taken into account in order to come to a logical conclusion. Lets all get on the same page regarding this one, we can only follow a logical process when discussing Eve, to do otherwise would only promote falsehood and lead to confusion. - This is the most difficult PVP game on the market due to actual pvp being complex and it taking a considerable amount of time to gather resource to obtain a ship. The game was 100% designed this way on purpose and that core mechanic will never ever change. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1131 "2021-12-24T18:43:10Z")
Nah, the actual breakdown is more like this: - OP looks at CCP’s stated intent of EVE needing more destruction and their attempts to bring this about. OP notices that despite CCP’s efforts, actually less destruction is happening. OP asks why it’s hard to get more destruction in a game supposedly _based_ on PvP. - PvP players who have no concept of game design start jumping in to say “it’s the players fault, because us PvPers are really rad and cool, but most players are bad and fools”. - Kezrai jumps in as usual to correct braindead assumptions, declarations of sheer fancy as ‘fact’, and other PvPer nonsense they engage in to deny reality and pretend they’re cool. - Kezrai and others point out the facts, the numbers, the _actual published statistical behavior_ of EVE players across over a decade and millions of logins to support some conclusions that “PvP can and should change for the better”. - PvPers **immediately panic** at the idea of potential change, and start all kinds of hand-waving, ad-hominems, strawmen and sheer made-up nonsense to stop anyone discussing ways to make PvP better for more players. As they always do. (Well, the ones on the forum at least. _Real_ PvPers are just out PvPing and ignoring all this.) - Kezrai points out the facts, again, and explains them in small, simple words. - PvPers start saying “Data doesn’t matter. The behavior of millions of logins across a decade or more isn’t important. What’s _really_ important is this story I told about me and another guy 6 years ago when we had a PvP fight. That’s what’s _truly_ significant.” - Kezrai and Cilla confronts the numbskulls with the inadequacy of their arguments. - PvPers start to flee the conflict, but then rally and come back saying “none of your points matter and the data doesn’t mean anything, because your forum alt hasn’t got a PvP record. So there!” That’s pretty much it. No actual arguments from the PvP crowd. Just made-up BS and reality denial. Only **one** , single, quite limited suggestion on “improving PvP”. (Thank you for that one, Aaron.) The PvP crowd here is very, _very_ invested in a specific style of ambush-gank-“sure win” PvP, and/or on pretending “PvP is _super_ hard in EVE and only us elite warriors can do it”. So the last thing they want to see is more, better PvP with more people engaging in it. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1132 "2021-12-24T19:45:35Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > > > miners do more PvP than gankers. > > Yes, but they are bad at it. Got 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 9:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1133 "2021-12-24T21:01:26Z")
[quote=“Destiny\_Corrupted, post:1132, topic:336984, full:true”] > [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > > [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > > > > miners do more PvP than gankers. > > > [/quote] > > > > > > Yes, but they are bad at it. > > Got 'em. It’s kinda weird the way these so-called "PvP"ers feel they’re elite warriors because with a ganking destroyer they can destroy weak ships armed with mining lasers. That’s an odd thing to build your sense of self-worth and validation around. At any rate, EVE isn’t even a PvP game - they just use that hook to sucker in some extra subs from social misfits. EVE is a space economy game, and the miners on average win it every month we have recorded data for. Because they mine more value every month than _all destruction put together_, and way more than gankers destroy. It must suck, playing second (or third) fiddle to a bunch of weak ships AFKing their way to victory. Explains why so few players engage in PvP, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 9:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1134 "2021-12-24T21:28:36Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > because with a ganking destroyer they can destroy weak ships armed with mining lasers Thankfully, there’s more to pvp than just highsec ganking. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > the miners on average win it every month we have recorded data for. Because they mine more value every month than _all destruction put together_, and way more than gankers destroy. Totally agree, yet there’s always calls for one more nerf. Even with the dominance of ATK miners and bots, things still aren’t safe enough for them. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2021, 11:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1135 "2021-12-24T23:30:58Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > It’s kinda weird the way these so-called "PvP"ers feel they’re elite warriors because with a ganking destroyer they can destroy weak ships armed with mining lasers. That’s an odd thing to build your sense of self-worth and validation around. Weird they play a game for fun huh? 😃 > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > At any rate, EVE isn’t even a PvP game - they just use that hook to sucker in some extra subs from social misfits. So you admit you’re a social misfit. Nice 😃 > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > EVE is a space economy game, and the miners on average win it every month we have recorded data for. Because they mine more value every month than _all destruction put together_, and way more than gankers destroy. > > It must suck, playing second (or third) fiddle to a bunch of weak ships AFKing their way to victory. Explains why so few players engage in PvP, I guess. You still haven’t proven nor defined what PvP actually means to you. Hence you can move the goal posts forever 😃 We noticed that already. I do say usually your troll efforts are better tho. But then you play World of Tanks so ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 7:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1136 "2021-12-25T07:37:34Z")
> [@Gix\_Firebrand](#): > > But then you play World of Tanks so X doubt If they do though, they seem to be the sort to shout “Noob team noob team, we lose now, thank you idiots” 15 seconds into the match ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 8:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1137 "2021-12-25T08:02:52Z")
The kind that says they carry the team even though their cumulative KDR is barely above 1.0? ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 8:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1138 "2021-12-25T08:37:03Z")
That KD ratio is just because it’s not possible to carry _every_ team. Some teams are just impossible to carry. And it’s best to tell your team that early on in the match. Repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Aaron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaron/32/379788_2.png) [@Aaron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaron)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 10:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1139 "2021-12-25T10:52:50Z")
Merry Christmas Everyone, hope you have a great day. Warzone 2100 (1998) is still being updated by a fan who purchased the rights and it is a great pvp game. Each team can be 1v1, 2v2, or 3v3 etc, each player has their own base on a limited size map and must research their technologies. Each player can build up to 135 tanks and cyborgs which can be fitted with weapons like Cannon, Machine gun, or rocket. I normally play the 4v4 matches with the goal being to destroy all of the other teams bases. [Warzone 2100 Home Page](https://wz2100.net/) Each match lasts around 20 minutes depending on the skill level of each team. It’s a good strategy game if you want something which doesn’t take long to build and losses aren’t so painful. The campaign mode is really good too, it’s a great story. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 11:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1140 "2021-12-25T11:22:42Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > If they do though, they seem to be the sort to shout “Noob team noob team, we lose now, thank you idiots” 15 seconds into the match I HATE the 43% WR ones with 20K+ games driving their inevitable German tanks while raging. Who will stick their story of “I always have bad teams that is why I’m 43%” no matter dumb that is. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 11:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1141 "2021-12-25T11:41:00Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > It’s kinda weird the way these so-called "PvP"ers feel they’re elite warriors because with a ganking destroyer they can destroy weak ships armed with mining lasers. That’s an odd thing to build your sense of self-worth and validation around. Indeed. But as I said in one of my very early posts, one comes across a stance that is not unlike the Emperor’s new clothes. All these ‘warrior PvP-ers’ have to keep up the pretence. The Emperor is wearing his finest shiny gold PvP. Ganking is some glorious battle in which the hunted exclaim ’ great fight !'…rather than the reality of it being a \*\*\*\* easy turkey shoot. So along comes the equivalent of the little un-brainwashed boy in the story…shouting out ’ but the Emperor’s got no clothes on ! ’ due to not having yet had time to be initiated into the secret cabal of sheer pretence. And the ‘warriors’ wriggle every which way…contradicting themselves numerous times. Nobody wants to admit that shooting goldfish in a bowl really isn’t all that grand or glorious and really doesn’t require all that much skill. They desperately have to keep up the pretence in which they are glorious lions and the hunted are just mindless and stupid wildebeast. Hans Christian Andersen would have loved it. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 11:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1142 "2021-12-25T11:46:47Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Nobody wants to admit that shooting goldfish in a bowl really isn’t all that grand or glorious and really doesn’t require all that much skill. They desperately have to keep up the pretence in which they are glorious lions and the hunted are just mindless and stupid wildebeast. Lions don’t really care about glory. They just kill something, eat it, and then chill under a tree. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 11:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1143 "2021-12-25T11:52:32Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Lions don’t really care about glory. Ah…that must be why they have a narcissistic ‘Princess’ in charge, and let’s face it James315 effectively _is_ ( or was ) ‘the Emperor’ of said story and there’s so much BS ‘lore’ spouted. Yeah…that really sounds like ‘chilling’. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2021, 11:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984/1144 "2021-12-25T11:55:31Z")
You seem to be really upset by free game content for some reason. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984.md?page=55) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/i-regret-to-inform-that-we-still-dont-die-enough/336984.md?page=57)