# If the number of players on the server is not higher by this time next year **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [August 16, 2023, 9:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161 "2023-08-16T09:32:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/245 "2023-08-24T19:42:40Z")
> [@Spacetramp\_Drago](#): > > I could go on and on and your 100% pvp game would shrink smaller and smaller when another player isn’t involved and competing with you. > [@Spacetramp\_Drago](#): > > Not buying ammo from a player isn’t pvp. It’s funny seeing you grasp at straws by hyperfocusing on “market pvp” discussions. Would you care to comment on CCP saying “This is because Eve Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core” instead, or is that too inconvenient a truth? Or is this really too easy to pretend to ignore: > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > > [@Spacetramp\_Drago](#): > > > > So stop making out it’s a pvp game, that is not what CCP advertise it at > > CCP [disagrees](http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/communityassets/pdf/EVE-Online-New-Pilot-FAQ.pdf) with you, here are their words: > > ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/3/c/83c5e6865da74a5c405e0f237db0047149042bb9.png) > > > This is because Eve Online is essentially a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core. > > They can advertise the game however they want, but the underlying philosophy remains „PvP game at its core“. > > CCP does deceptively advertise, for easy money. Doesn’t change the nature of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/246 "2023-08-24T19:58:32Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > That’s the level of unimaginativeness I expect form CCP. There are tons of ways for interesting planet-side content. Like what? we already have PI on moons, we are ruling out combat on planets, so what are you expecting, an RTS? a TCG? Go-karting? Tetris? Like what do YOU think we can do on planets that would actually contribute that we don’t already do elsewhere? because creating a minigame on planets just for the sake of having a minigame is a waste of development resources, it needs to provide some actual value > [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > The chronicles mention that one time where an Capsuleer Rokh threatens to attack a planetary city if the city doesn’t allow the exploitation of nearby resources. A distress call could be broadcasted region or cluster-wide to kill the attacker in space So a “Go here and kill this NPC” mission, which we already have, this isn’t adding anything new > [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > Likewise, you could have attacks on research or military facilities and could be asked to help defend the compounds or you could be asked to aid the attacks. Oh look another generic combat mission > [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > Likewise, silent planet stuff could come from exploration in space to explore ruins Lara Croft or Indiana Jones style. And why would we want to do that? you keep trying to get WiS to happen, which isn’t going to happen, so rule out anything avatar related on planets due to the costs involved, those missions would have to generate some serious levels of interaction to be justified, and they won’t ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 8:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/247 "2023-08-24T20:06:44Z")
> [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > So that would be every gamer then and not just newer generation gamers. Which clearly hasn’t been the case in eves history or it wouldn’t have had golden ages then… Nobody said that was always the case, so your example doesn’t really counteract the current market trends, older games like EVE used to survive because there was less handholding required, people engaged the contents of their brains and were far more willing to learn instead of just being handed the end result > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > In other words, it isn’t about gamers not wanting to put in the time it’s about the game needing updates in many areas because it’s being outclassed in those areas with newer games. Not really, those games are appealing to the people less willing to put in effort and those games and those games end up having the depth of a puddle and being super generic and/or cash grabs > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Nope on both counts. Still gotta work to get the funds to pay for that sp. Work you would be doing anyway, there is a difference between the work you _have_ to do on a daily basis and the work you also have to do to play the game > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Even if you use real money you’ll be limited in amount before reducing returns. Sure, but by that time you’ve already caught up to people unless you’re spamming SP in everything, if you’re hoping to catch up by maxing everything then no, you’re never going to catch up, but your SP can only affect so many things so you only really need so much SP to match someone in a specific ship > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Still gotta work at it a likely long time. Sorry, not instant gratification Mr gramps uphill both ways in a storm Except it is still instant gratification, here you’re confusing “pay to win” with “instant gratification” That SP won’t make you better than other players, but it will instantly get you in to that ship you want or finish off those skills you want without actually waiting for it > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > No. You make it sustainable by one character(ue up the resources gathered or what not for one character.) And at that point the few people who do manage to multibox it get an insane extra income of resources which then again breaks the economy, there are knock on effects you’ve forgotten to consider here > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Still waiting for you to provide any is why…fairly obvious. I already have, you not liking it doesn’t change reality ---
**Author:** ![Dyver\_Phycad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dyver_phycad/32/358575_2.png) [@Dyver\_Phycad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dyver_Phycad)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 8:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/248 "2023-08-24T20:19:01Z")
> [@Cypherous](#): > > And why would we want to do that? you keep trying to get WiS to happen, which isn’t going to happen, so rule out anything avatar related on planets due to the costs involved, those missions would have to generate some serious levels of interaction to be justified, and they won’t Just because you lack the necessary level of imagination doesn’t rule out anything from happening. > [@Cypherous](#): > > Like what do YOU think we can do on planets that would actually contribute that we don’t already do elsewhere? These storyline tidbits during the Trig invasion, where they fought on Raravoss planets, would have been a major opportunities for planetside experiences in combat like a shooter, infiltration and espionage like Tom Clancy games, actual distribution efforts to aid either sides. Being able to participate in these events and shaping them instead of just reading about them in sterile, artificial news reports is adding a lot to the game. ---
**Author:** ![Ciryc\_Lagrej](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ciryc_lagrej/32/375359_2.png) [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ciryc_Lagrej)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 8:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/249 "2023-08-24T20:25:08Z")
> [@Cypherous](#): > > Nobody said that was always the case, so your example doesn’t really counteract the current market trends, older games like EVE used to survive because there was less handholding required, people engaged the contents of their brains and were far more willing to learn instead of just being handed the end result Source on that? Because there’s no evidence of that just like everything else you still haven’t provided a source for. Current market trends don’t show this or your conflating other things with this… you’re making up reasons that aren’t what those trends mean…it’s like looking at car colors being pulled over seeing red cars are the highest ticketed and saying “cops target red cars.”. But that data has many more reasons behind it… > [@Cypherous](#): > > Not really, those games are appealing to the people less willing to put in effort and those games and those games end up having the depth of a puddle and being super generic and/or cash grabs Baulders gate 3 disagrees heavily. You’re just wrong on this. Quality attracts away from gacha games. > [@Cypherous](#): > > Work you would be doing anyway, there is a difference between the work you _have_ to do on a daily basis and the work you also have to do to play the game This means nothing. I’m not even sure what this has to do with anything. > [@Cypherous](#): > > Sure, but by that time you’ve already caught up to people unless you’re spamming SP in everything, if you’re hoping to catch up by maxing everything then no, you’re never going to catch up, but your SP can only affect so many things so you only really need so much SP to match someone in a specific ship Not true, there’s alllooootttt you still need to unlock after the reducing returns points. I know. And that’s not even considering capitals… > [@Cypherous](#): > > Except it is still instant gratification, here you’re confusing “pay to win” with “instant gratification” > > That SP won’t make you better than other players, but it will instantly get you in to that ship you want or finish off those skills you want without actually waiting for it I’m not and it’s not. You still need to grind or pay real money that you “grinded” at work for that…so no it’s not…again. > [@Cypherous](#): > > already have, you not liking it doesn’t change reality No you haven’t. You provided things you thought were sources and I have logically shown you why they aren’t sources for what you are purporting. You’re conflating vaguely games and “market trends” to an idea of instant gratification when in reality there are far more variables to everything you’ve “sourced”. I’m sorry but no, reality doesn’t agree with you no matter how much you gaslight data…it still doesn’t mean what you say it means without a direct cause that rules out all other causes. If you invoke reality in the future you better start understanding how metrics and data actually work. ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/250 "2023-08-24T20:28:50Z")
> [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > Just because you lack the necessary level of imagination doesn’t rule out anything from happening. No its because i have a good imagination that i, like CCP, am able to see how utterly pointless it actually is, i’ve already detailed the reasons why it wouldn’t work above so i’m not going to bother repeating myself > [@Dyver\_Phycad](#): > > These storyline tidbits during the Trig invasion, where they fought on Raravoss planets, would have been a major opportunities for planetside experiences in combat like a shooter Except the shooter isn’t going to interact with EVE, if there is a shooter it will be its own entity outside of the game so sure they could tell small stories in those standalone games but it won’t be added to EVE itself So what within EVE would you want to happen on those planets? ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 8:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/251 "2023-08-24T20:40:23Z")
> [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Source on that? Because there’s no evidence of that just like everything else you still haven’t provided a source for. I have, you just don’t like the evidence, slight difference > **[EA Earnings Report: Billions In Microtransaction Revenue, Star Wars Reaches...](https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ea-earnings-report-billions-in-microtransaction-revenue-star-wars-reaches-52-million-sold-bioware-comments-more/1100-6487042/)** > > EA has made billions from microtransactions in the past year, the company announces in its latest earnings release. EA earning billions from MTX > Blizzard doing the same Want me to continue citing games that rely on instant gratification? > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Baulders gate 3 disagrees heavily. You’re just wrong on this. Quality attracts away from gacha games. D’awww look, 1 whole game out of the literal hundreds of thousands of others > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > This means nothing. I’m not even sure what this has to do with anything. Sure it does, you’re skipping the work by throwing money at it, literal instant gratification lol > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Not true, there’s alllooootttt you still need to unlock after the reducing returns points. I know. And that’s not even considering capitals… Thats assuming you care about capitals, which not everyone does > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > I’m not and it’s not. You still need to grind or pay real money that you “grinded” at work for that…so no it’s not…again. Yes which is instant gratification lol > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > No you haven’t. You think that 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ciryc\_Lagrej](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ciryc_lagrej/32/375359_2.png) [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ciryc_Lagrej)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/252 "2023-08-24T21:04:42Z")
Mtx revenues don’t conflate to instant gratification especially since both of those you listed sell cosmetics… As well those games and companies are popular because of the IPs and those companies having a past history of games popular(many from before having microtransactions.). So again, you don’t understand metrics or data…you haven’t listed actual sources that connect with what you say. In other words: “daawwe look 0 games you actually connect to instant gratification” > [@Cypherous](#): > > Sure it does, you’re skipping the work by throwing money at it, literal instant gratification lol Oh look ignoring the other part of the sentence. It is literally not instant gratification. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > > > And that’s not even considering capitals… > > Thats assuming you care about capitals, which not everyone does Also ignoring the other part of the sentence where I correctly pointed out you hit reducing returns far before you’ve unlocked even half of subcapitals. > [@Cypherous](#): > > You think that No, I know that. But yeah I think I’m done. You’ve demonstrated that you’re unwilling to accept that you’ve conflated “sources” into something that that data doesn’t actually show. And that you just want to keep on “I’ve had it hard so everyone else must be lazy!” Train. This conversation is why a lot of new players don’t come and stay in eve. ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/253 "2023-08-24T21:13:25Z")
> [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Mtx revenues don’t conflate to instant gratification especially since both of those you listed sell cosmetics… EA isn’t selling cosmetics, they are selling fifa ultimate team packs, that is where the bulk of their MTX comes from, most of blizzards also came from things like overwatch lootboxes at the time, which is still people looking for instant gratification, you are free to think otherwise though > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > As well those games and companies are popular because of the IPs and those companies having a past history of games popular(many from before having microtransactions.). Not sure how you think blizzard is popular, the world at large has been tearing them apart of late and everyone hates EA for being EA lol > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > So again, you don’t understand metrics or data…you haven’t listed actual sources that connect with what you say. In other words: “daawwe look 0 games you actually connect to instant gratification” I mean you’re free to ignore the evidence, that doesn’t change what it is 🙂 > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Oh look ignoring the other part of the sentence. It is literally not instant gratification. So what part of it isn’t instant gratification? are you unlocking those items ingame with an ingame grind? no? instant gratification, its an extremely simple concept to understand my dood > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Also ignoring the other part of the sentence where I correctly pointed out you hit reducing returns far before you’ve unlocked even half of subcapitals. And why do you think you need to unlock all of the subcapital ships? You don’t have to fly all 4 races ships and new players shouldn’t be thinking about cross speccing anyway, and the proper diminishing returns don’t happen until you hit 50mil SP which is more than enough to unlock pretty much most of a single races ships with a few T2’s possibly not being maxed out > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > No, I know that. No, you think it, but you are allowed to think what you like, it doesn’t affect reality 🙂 > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > But yeah I think I’m done. You’ve demonstrated that you’re unwilling to accept that you’ve conflated “sources” into something that that data doesn’t actually show. And that you just want to keep on “I’ve had it hard so everyone else must be lazy!” Train. So you ask for evidence, then don’t like the evidence because it doesn’t agree with you so you claim its wrong then proceed to not provide your own evidence and then peace out of the conversation? Thank you for admitting defeat then 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ciryc\_Lagrej](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ciryc_lagrej/32/375359_2.png) [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ciryc_Lagrej)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/254 "2023-08-24T21:15:30Z")
Didn’t admit defeat. I also correctly pointed out where your evidence isn’t evidence for what you purport. But thanks for not being actually logical. If you had any actual evidence I may have changed my mind. I do that, you should to. ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 9:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/255 "2023-08-24T21:21:40Z")
> [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Didn’t admit defeat. By refusing facts and refusing to provide any evidence you did, if you want to cite your sources then by all means 🙂 > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > I also correctly pointed out where your evidence isn’t evidence for what you purport. But thanks for not being actually logical. I’ve been nothing but logical, i’ve cited you the revenues from income and pointed out the numerous examples of instant gratification that you yourself provided while claiming they aren’t > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > If you had any actual evidence I may have changed my mind. I do that, you should to. Oh changing your mind was impossible the second you refused to accept the actual evidence without providing your own 🙂 Thanks for playing o7 ---
**Author:** ![Ciryc\_Lagrej](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ciryc_lagrej/32/375359_2.png) [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ciryc_Lagrej)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/256 "2023-08-24T21:24:19Z")
Incorrect, I refused no actual evidence and no facts. I didn’t provide any evidence because there was no evidence to refute. Only things presented were illogical conflations. You haven’t been logical at all. ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/257 "2023-08-24T21:29:30Z")
> [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Incorrect, I refused no actual evidence and no facts. I gave you 2 links and numerous examples of why what you suggested was still instant gratification, you refused to accept them, so yes you did infact do both of those things 🙂 > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > I didn’t provide any evidence because there was no evidence to refute. If you say so, the world seems to disagree though > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Only things presented were illogical conflations. Again, you’re allowed to think that, reality doesn’t change as a result of that 🙂 > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > You haven’t been logical at all. Except all the times i was, like i said if you have evidence to refute it provide it, if not accept that you doubled down on incorrect information and just move on 🙂 You’re human, you’re allowed to make mistakes, just own them ---
**Author:** ![Ciryc\_Lagrej](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ciryc_lagrej/32/375359_2.png) [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ciryc_Lagrej)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 9:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/258 "2023-08-24T21:33:12Z")
Lol only one that made mistakes is you , which I have shown and you refuse to accept. You’re the one who needs to own them. As I said I didn’t need to provide anything because you didn’t provide any actual evidence to your point. Providing links doesn’t automatically make them evidence to your point (for the why reread what I’ve said above and learn.). You haven’t been logical at all which also coincidentally means that you don’t really have a say on what reality is. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 9:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/259 "2023-08-24T21:37:19Z")
> [@Spacetramp\_Drago](#): > > I don’t compete > [@Spacetramp\_Drago](#): > > stopped manufacturing to sell when they brought in citadels as I knew I would never be able to compete. “I didn’t want to compete anyway”. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 10:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/260 "2023-08-24T22:03:12Z")
> [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Lol only one that made mistakes is you If you say so, like i said there isn’t any convincing someone who doesn’t want to accept reality > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > which I have shown and you refuse to accept. You’ve shown me nothing but examples that demonstrate instant gratification while attempting to prove to me that its not a driving force in the current market, not sure if serious > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > You’re the one who needs to own them. If you can actually provide evidence to refute my claims and its correct then i will accept them, but so far you’ve not managed this task despite claiming to have evidence to refute it, you’ve only supported my arguments thus far > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > Providing links doesn’t automatically make them evidence to your point (for the why reread what I’ve said above and learn.). So you don’t think companies who literally make billions off of instant gratification item sales isn’t evidence that these companies are making billions from instant gratification item sales? 😛 Would definitely be curious what you would consider evidence to be, these companies go on record stating what they earn to investors and what parts make the most money, its literally coming from their own mouths lol > [@Ciryc\_Lagrej](#): > > You haven’t been logical at all which also coincidentally means that you don’t really have a say on what reality is. Agree to disagree, like i said you are free to think what you like, reality isn’t going to alter itself to fit your narrative 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 10:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/261 "2023-08-24T22:31:25Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > > > Wanting to skip EVE’s obsolete rookie grind is a perfectly-informed stance > > So what do you propose ? What’s the alternative ? 1. Start new players off with a bunch of skill points, either applied or as free SP, with limitations on what it SP can be applied to so that players don’t do something stupid like, say, put everything into mining right away. 2. Steer players toward more engaging starter content that is combat/exploration-focused. Mining should be seen as a side activity, and not the “main job.” 3. Give players a [universal income](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731) of some sort, so that new players don’t feel too demoralized to keep playing when they take heavy losses, since they know that more money is right around the corner. 4. Integrate PvP content into the NPE, and ensure that PvP is prevalent as a primary activity during the new player formative period. > [@Princess\_Valloris](#): > > Every EVE player knows that it’s a PvP game. Nah. Maybe like…a third to a half of all new players. CCP tries to keep the fact that EVE is predominantly an open-world PvP game hidden from potential players by not mentioning it in their marketing materials. The EVE devs we have today regret it quite a bit that the original devs developed EVE as an open-world PvP game. They wish it weren’t the case, because they’d have fewer problems selling the game today. > [@Gadget\_Helmsdottir](#): > > Just Wow. > > All of those actions you mentioned does involve competition - or at least affecting other players. > > If you mine in an “empty” system, I could come by an hour after you left and find nothing to mine. Same logic applies to anomalies. > > If you make your own ammo, that’s one less customer out there - that’s also less resources for others to use. If you mine your own resource - see above, and if you purchase them, you quite likely could affect the price and availability of said recourse. > > Even if you don’t think your actions affects others in EvE, they do. > > YOU Matter! Boomer won’t understand these things. Their only concern is how much ISK is in the wallet, and what kind of meat will be on the plate for dinner tonight. You’re expecting way more self-awareness than reasonable from someone who was literally trained not to possess any. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2023, 11:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/262 "2023-08-24T23:43:30Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > - Start new players off with a bunch of skill points, either applied or as free SP, with limitations on what it SP can be applied to so that players don’t do something stupid like, say, put everything into mining right away. > - Steer players toward more engaging starter content that is combat/exploration-focused. Mining should be seen as a side activity, and not the “main job.” > - Give players a [universal income](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/evolving-eve-a-universal-income/285731) of some sort, so that new players don’t feel too demoralized to keep playing when they take heavy losses, since they know that more money is right around the corner. > - Integrate PvP content into the NPE, and ensure that PvP is prevalent as a primary activity during the new player formative period. (your numbering) 1. Not bad. And with context added, why the SP should be (or has been) spent on those particular skill sets. It would reduce a lot of confusion and frustration when starting out. Provided that new players read and absorb the context, which is never guaranteed. 2. I wish they could be guided more readily into fleets too - there aren’t that many public fleets except perhaps in Caldari space ? Of course, you are right. Mining is not the main job, and esp for alphas it’s not really return on investment of time. Still, for every question “what’s the best pvp ship for a starting alpha” you get at least 30 times the question “what’s the best mining ship” in Rookie Help. Why ?! As soon as one knows that this game is open pvp, mining should be fairly low on the priorities. Maybe because it looks like easy isk and is very straightforward ? 3. I’m always reluctant to accept new isk faucets. As I wrote earlier today, the root of the ISK part of the problem lies in the state of the economy with the start of scarcity and the changes to resource distribution. Second, the bounties on npcs in hisec, the payouts in lvl 1/2/3 missions are still the same level as 2011 at least, probably even older than that, and not adjusted to the current market situation. Perhaps those should be reconsidered ( not making a universal/automatic income would prevent all sorts of typical abuse of the system we are so good at, or we’ll have an other sp farm like situation). 4. Yep, but that makes the devs face the same challenges as point #2. How do you get people together, if they are still reluctant to do so ? Some mmo’s use “waiting rooms” for small scale pvp (one on ones). It should be possible to implement it in a way that makes it easy, quick and cheap (for bob’s sake, reimburse the ships for the pvp part of the training…) It’s additional handholding, something we traditionally do not like, but if that is what it takes to get new people on board better, then why not. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 12:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/263 "2023-08-25T00:09:31Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > I’m always reluctant to accept new isk faucets. As I wrote earlier today, the root of the problem lies in the state of the economy with the start of scarcity and the changes to resource distribution. Second, the bounties on npcs in hisec, the payouts in lvl 1/2/3 missions are still the same level as 2011 at least, probably even older than that, and not adjusted to the current market situation. Perhaps those should be reconsidered ( not making a universal/automatic income would prevent all sorts of typical abuse of the system we are so good at, or we’ll have an other sp farm like situation). The universal income would be too marginal for established players to bother with. And it can be tied to a certain amount of in-space activity per day as a qualifier. Kind of like the daily quests, but more open-ended. As in, just be undocked in space for a certain amount of time, not cloaked, and flying any ship aside from a pod, capsule, or shuttle to qualify. If someone wants to create a thousand Alpha account to farm like 3 million ISK per day on each in this manner, let them. It’s still going to be a very marginal faucet in the economy. And ISK faucets aren’t inherently bad anyway. > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > Yep, but that makes the devs face the same challenges as point #2. How do you get people together, if they are still reluctant to do so ? Some mmo’s use “waiting rooms” for small scale pvp (one on ones). It should be possible to implement it in a way that makes it easy, quick and cheap (for bob’s sake, reimburse the ships for the pvp part of the training…) Literally missions that send new players to the same place and make them fight over a resource. The participants get rewarded regardless of success or failure. Maybe not equally. Like, if you win, here’s some money and LP. If you lose, here’s a new hull and/or some modules. In a perfect world, the NPC corporation system would be integrated into FW, so all players would have to choose to either be in FW by default, or enter a player corporation that is susceptible to wars (no more war immunity). And both systems would be reworked in order to be more equitable and less abusive. For example, conventional wars would be restructured so that it would be very expensive for large war conglomerates to farm much smaller groups for content, and FW players could be given “R&R” benefits that they can accumulate as a reward for combat action that would allow them to retain their FW membership benefits while not being a target to anyone for a period of time (maybe even with a small income multiplier attached). Lots of creative ways to boost PvP _and_ make the game much more open-ended at the same. There just has to be developer desire to pursue such initiatives, which will probably never be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2023, 12:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161/264 "2023-08-25T00:22:09Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > There just has to be developer desire to pursue such initiatives, which will probably never be the case. I can’t remember if I wrote my criticism about the NPE on the forum, probably not, because what they did was so far away from what I saw in the game as necessary points of attention that there was no start nor end to the criticism. Nothing really changed, it’s still the same career missions, with a different user interface. The AIR “career” programs are lists of “join a corporaton” and “remote rep someone”, without enabling it in any way for a new player who doesn’t know anyone and who can’t place things into context. Things don’t change with words alone, sometimes you do have to bring the horse to the water. It’s all easy for us to say of course, we aren’t devs. Yet, it would be very interesting to have a good brainstorm + concept building session on this subject, pushed to the point of out-of-the-box thinking. But indeed, they’ve been there, they’ve done their thing, and it will probably lie dormant for another decade. Follow-up has never been their strength. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161.md?page=12) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/if-the-number-of-players-on-the-server-is-not-higher-by-this-time-next-year/416161.md?page=14)