# In regard of Imperial slave raids and public uproar, call to Capsuleer Forces! **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [October 22, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073 "2019-10-22T16:31:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/23 "2019-10-23T17:00:21Z")
> [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > Emphasis added. They are not raiding enemy territory. They are attacking civilian populations within Empire-controlled systems. This is no different than the Federation taking systems, and rounding up the Caldari citizens in those systems to be sent off the Black Eagle prisons for torture and inquisition. Would you consider that ‘internal Federal politics’? Would you have no objection to that? Civilian population shall submit to military authority. If they submit, there would be no need in a military raid, isn’t it so? I am not really sure how Black Eagles operate, but I do know how Federal Navy operate - and they torture Prisoners of war - those, who were fighting against Gallente invaders. As for Federal relations with civilians - I am not sure whose authority under were these Death squads, and as far as I am aware, they were simply murdering colonists, not even trying to capture or bring them under Federal authority. I believe these actions were committed by the Federal Navy itself not Black Eagles. From what I heard, Black Eagles act against Federal own population, making “disappear” one of them who disagree that “Caldari are evil” and resist Gallente brainwashing by other methods. Black Eagles are more “cloak and dagger” organization, while “stomp-stomp-murder-murder-mass-genocide” is more like Federal Navy. Though again, if the system is under control of the Crusade, citizens who obey Imperial law should not be afraid of anything. If they don’t fight against the Empire, if they don’t commit crimes against them - there will be no reason to enslave them and I am pretty sure that Lord Sarum’s troops even if capture these citizens, will let them back home after all required check in regard of their connections with possible resistance, guerilla, illegal terrorist, TLF or similar unwelcome forces. I trust in Honor and Fairness of our Imperial allies. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/24 "2019-10-23T17:11:54Z")
> [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > We have spoken at length about what liars the Amarr are, Commander. You saw it yourself with Ibrahim Tash-Murkon. You know that I do _not_ lie, even to my enemies. > > Will you rethink your position, or will you call me a liar? With all the respect, Ms. Stjornauga, I don’t really treat Ibrahim Tash-Murkon as an “Imperial” anymore. His behavior matches one of Priano’s pets - not something that you would expect from a Honorable Imperial Knight or a Paladin. His place is in Jita local, with dozens oters of similar morals. I can imagine him yapping and spamming local with scams, but I cannot imagine him fighting “For God and Empire”. That he simply has Amarr ancestry doesn’t make him Faithful, Loyal and Honorable by default. These are shapen by our actions, and his actions speak for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Anna\_Stjornauga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anna_stjornauga/32/377304_2.png) [@Anna\_Stjornauga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anna_Stjornauga)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/25 "2019-10-23T18:34:02Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > Civilian population shall submit to military authority. If they submit, there would be no need in a military raid, isn’t it so? There have been no indications that civilian populations within the warzone have _not_ submitted. This is not a raid. This is an enslavement of civilians who have not engaged in any acts of war, nor committed any crimes. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > I am pretty sure that Lord Sarum’s troops even if capture these citizens Lord Sarum’s troops are _specifically targeting_ those civilians. They are not confining their enslavement to criminals, or to those engaged in resistance. That is what a ‘full Reclaiming’ means. It means enslavement of the general population. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > I don’t really treat Ibrahim Tash-Murkon as an “Imperial” anymore. He remains an Imperial Lord and Holder. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/26 "2019-10-23T18:46:38Z")
> [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > Lord Sarum’s troops are _specifically targeting_ those civilians. They are not confining their enslavement to criminals, or to those engaged in resistance. That is what a ‘full Reclaiming’ means. It means enslavement of the general population. He cannot do this, because this will be in violation of Amarr laws! > [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > He remains an Imperial Lord and Holder. He is independent “Lord” of ARC now. He is employed by them, not by Amarr Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Lyra\_North-Onren](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lyra_north-onren/32/294285_2.png) [@Lyra\_North-Onren](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lyra_North-Onren)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/27 "2019-10-23T18:48:41Z")
He’s a Lord and Holder of the Empire who has a weird job. It doesn’t take his title away. If he happens to be a liar, and I don’t personally know him to say one way or another, that however doesn’t reflect on all Amarr. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/28 "2019-10-23T18:48:49Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > Because this will be in violation of Amarr laws! Amarr Law, it seems, has changed. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/29 "2019-10-23T18:49:27Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > He cannot do this, because this will be in violation of Amarr laws! Uh… Who’s gonna tell her? ---
**Author:** ![Anna\_Stjornauga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anna_stjornauga/32/377304_2.png) [@Anna\_Stjornauga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anna_Stjornauga)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/30 "2019-10-23T19:34:28Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > He cannot do this, because this will be in violation of Amarr laws! The laws of the Empire, as Mr. Aloga has indicated, can be changed at a whim of the Empress. They do not bind the highest echelons of Imperial society. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > He is independent “Lord” of ARC now. He is employed by them, not by Amarr Empire. His titles are completely independent of employment. He is a member of House Tash-Murkon, by blood and title, and will remain so unless he is specifically severed from them. He retains whatever authority his title granted him, within the Empire, and will continue to retain that authority no matter who he works for, unless his titles are revoked. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/515671_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/31 "2019-10-23T19:43:27Z")
Just block her, ignore her and go on with your day. Not worth the effort of trying to engage an irrational, stiff-necked fool in a reasoned conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Anna\_Stjornauga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anna_stjornauga/32/377304_2.png) [@Anna\_Stjornauga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anna_Stjornauga)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/32 "2019-10-23T19:54:28Z")
I’ve found Commander Kim to be a reasonable person in our previous discussions. She has a viewpoint shaped by her experiences, but when shown reasonable respect and patience, she has very little difficulty understanding foreign concepts. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/33 "2019-10-23T20:00:21Z")
> [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > The laws of the Empire, as Mr. Aloga has indicated, can be changed at a whim of the Empress. They do not bind the highest echelons of Imperial society. In that case, unfortunately, I have nothing to say on the subject without consulting Imperial authorities first. After all, it’s their laws, not mine. > [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > His titles are completely independent of employment. He is a member of House Tash-Murkon, by blood and title, and will remain so unless he is specifically severed from them. He retains whatever authority his title granted him, within the Empire, and will continue to retain that authority no matter who he works for, unless his titles are revoked. Well, I might not know exactly as the Empire operates, but what I got from years of service in the State, I know that the title only gives you a merit, not authority, and title allows you to assume a certain position of authority that will give you that authority, and that position is your employment. For example, the rank of Brigadier General is higher than a rank of a Major. But as a Brigadier General you could leave just a single squad. And a Major could for example lead a small striking group consisting of several ships. In that case authority of a Major will extend further than authority of a General. ---
**Author:** ![Anna\_Stjornauga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anna_stjornauga/32/377304_2.png) [@Anna\_Stjornauga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anna_Stjornauga)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/34 "2019-10-23T20:04:43Z")
In the case of titles like ‘Lord’ and ‘Holder’, Commander, it is less a matter of military rank and more equivalent to him being considered a major, if not majority, shareholder in a megacorporation. Imagine someone who owns a full 1% of Lai Dai, and has extensive ties and _guanxi_ with the entire Megacorporate board, for example, and the kind of influence that gives them over Lai Dai personnel. Even without official ‘authority’, they become someone whom it is not smart for rank-and-file employees to annoy. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > In that case, unfortunately, I have nothing to say on the subject without consulting Imperial authorities first. After all, it’s their laws, not mine. The larger issue, really, is that this apparent change in their laws would a) seem to contradict international treaty obligations, and b) is not a purely internal matter, as the civilians they are attacking are citizens of another nation. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrel\_Toov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tyrel_toov/32/387953_2.png) [@Tyrel\_Toov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tyrel_Toov)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/35 "2019-10-23T20:07:49Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > After all, it’s their laws, not mine. Until they are done with us and the Caldari are next on the menu. Buuuut, I’m sure that your two countries alliance will spare you. After all, it’s also part of Amarrian law. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/36 "2019-10-23T20:47:15Z")
> [@Tyrel\_Toov](#): > > your two countries alliance will spare you The State has acted as an ally, the Republic acted as though at war. From that draw your own conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/37 "2019-10-23T20:59:21Z")
But how long until the Empire makes war upon the State? ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/38 "2019-10-23T21:00:50Z")
> [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > Imagine someone who owns a full 1% of Lai Dai, and has extensive ties and _guanxi_ with the entire Megacorporate board, for example, and the kind of influence that gives them over Lai Dai personnel. Even without official ‘authority’, they become someone whom it is not smart for rank-and-file employees to annoy. That would mean he only have authority to place 1% of votes and get 1% of dividents. To get a real authority he would have to be offered a position in the board of directors. Or at least as some kind of a manager. There’s little to no influence a shareholder has a rank-and-file members of the Corporation. > [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > The larger issue, really, is that this apparent change in their laws would a) seem to contradict international treaty obligations, and b) is not a purely internal matter, as the civilians they are attacking are citizens of another nation. I do believe they have lawyers to sort these things out. This is really something out of my sphere of competence! ---
**Author:** ![Tyrel\_Toov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tyrel_toov/32/387953_2.png) [@Tyrel\_Toov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tyrel_Toov)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/39 "2019-10-23T21:06:55Z")
Conclusion: When it no longer benefits the Amarr to maintain an alliance with the Caldari, they will contrive any excuse to back out of it and reclaim by the sword. ---
**Author:** ![Anna\_Stjornauga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anna_stjornauga/32/377304_2.png) [@Anna\_Stjornauga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anna_Stjornauga)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/40 "2019-10-23T21:06:59Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > That would mean he only have authority to place 1% of votes and get 1% of dividents. To get a real authority he would have to be offered a position in the board of directors. Or at least as some kind of a manager. There’s little to no influence a shareholder has a rank-and-file members of the Corporation. This ignores the _guanxi_, the relationships and favors owed to and by the full board of directors. Such an individual exerts quite a lot of influence, even without official authority. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > I do believe they have lawyers to sort these things out. Which is exactly why LUMEN has asked the Empress for the clarification on the legal matters, and why individuals like Lord Gallius and Elsebeth have made similar requests of CONCORD. As I’m sure you’re aware, legal bureaucracies do not address specific matters unless people bring those matters to the authorities’ attention. With that in mind, I’m sure you would be willing to support these requests for clarity from the lawful authorities, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/41 "2019-10-23T21:54:28Z")
Do the State seem especially likely to foment rebellions or bombard Mekhios from orbit for instance? It was a little more than the situation not being advantageous. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073/42 "2019-10-23T22:15:29Z")
> [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > This ignores the _guanxi_ , the relationships and favors owed to and by the full board of directors. Such an individual exerts quite a lot of influence, even without official authority. Oh well, these are more personal relations than title-induced. > [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > Which is exactly why LUMEN has asked the Empress for the clarification on the legal matters, and why individuals like Lord Gallius and Elsebeth have made similar requests of CONCORD. As I’m sure you’re aware, legal bureaucracies do not address specific matters unless people bring those matters to the authorities’ attention. And with LUMEN I have nothing against their initiative. Internal Imperial matters are of not my concern. I do tend to support myself authorities, but when Amarr themselves want to deal with their authorities by their own way - I’d better stay out of their way. Really, not my business. What was for me a “red flag” is foreigners (as not being from Empire) raising cry like it’s very “wrong” thing that is happening, especially when they ignore what Federals do. And, again, as I repeat, compare forced labor with tortures, beating, rape, starving people on purpose… Then unproportional replies from terrorists, promising to murder innocent civilians… > [@Anna\_Stjornauga](#): > > With that in mind, I’m sure you would be willing to support these requests for clarity from the lawful authorities, yes? Even if they blew it up, my position is to support official Imperial authorities, I am not going to intervene into internal Amarr politics and especially I am not going to support any request that could even remotely be viewed as targeted against Imperial officials, ma’am. I am going to protect the Empire from _foreigners_ who thinks they can intervene into Imperial politics. And I am really not going to become ones whom I am fighting against. I am just an ally of an Empire as a whole, not a pawn in their games of thrones. While they say it’s legal to do these raids, I’ll stick with it and will call others to support it. If these petition will pass and Imperial authorities will call out these raids, I will say that those who do them violate the orders. I would like to emphasize it again, my enemies are enemies of the Empire, and I consider all this crowd who are telling Empire how to sort their business to be bullies. Likely, they are enemies of the Empire and thus enemies of mine as well. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/in-regard-of-imperial-slave-raids-and-public-uproar-call-to-capsuleer-forces/197073.md?page=3)