# Its Own Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [April 22, 2019, 7:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295 "2019-04-22T07:26:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 7:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/1 "2019-04-22T07:26:10Z")
> [@\[MULTO\] A message to the Ammatar Mandate and House Ardishapur](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/multo-a-message-to-the-ammatar-mandate-and-house-ardishapur/149942/50): > > So that would need _its own thread_ . And Lo! There it was. Only, not, so much. Because it occurs to my, @Lyra_North-Onren, that that thread isn’t the place for squabbling amongst different factions of Minmatar, either. So, this is! Because, let’s face it, that’s a topic, so it’s not off-topic. > [@\[MULTO\] A message to the Ammatar Mandate and House Ardishapur](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/multo-a-message-to-the-ammatar-mandate-and-house-ardishapur/149942/50): > > The reason why is simple: Anyone loyal to the Mandate is your enemy. There’s not really room for debate. I am your enemy. I don’t _hate_ you, but I shoot you and you shoot me. I literally fought against many of you in Thebeka. It’s very clear cut where we stand. To pretend otherwise is madness and to call our lives _lies_ is unfounded and arrogant. I’d just like to point out here that I don’t consider you my enemy. You may, at times, be my _opponent_. Aldrith has been. Aria has been. But they’re not my enemies. I _have_ enemies, of course…but I won’t give them the dignity of their names. They don’t deserve it. But you? Fighting for what you believe is right, without necessarily a _personal_ animus, or even a personal desire to cause _hurt_… why would you be my enemy? ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 11:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/2 "2019-04-22T11:13:18Z")
I, on the other hand, _am_ willing to say that the Ammatar Mandate is my enemy, and that if you fly loyal to it, by extension so are you. And then, with individuals like @Armast_Darkar, it gets complicated. I would also like to point out that while I am grateful obviously that they did, it does not seem to me that the Ammatar saved the Starkmanir out of _loyalty to the free tribes_. They did what they did to preserve life in the face of atrocity, but that was like an internal subversion _inside the Amarr Empire_. The Starkmanir were kept in Darkness, and where possible _integrated to the Ammatar Mandate and/or the Amarr Empire_ - not brought to freedom. If not quite loyal to the Empire, these actions were more akin to the Kernherite Heresy than to actions of the truly free: stemming from a belief that individual Holders, or even the Emperor/Empress can err, but God and the Empire remain what you should put your loyalty to. That a lot of Nefantar and Starkmanir still believe in that Faith after being shown the way out of Darkness emphasizes that impression. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 11:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/3 "2019-04-22T11:59:08Z")
She doesn’t like it being called “Kernherism”. She prefers “Avetatism” I think. ---
**Author:** ![Lyra\_North-Onren](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lyra_north-onren/32/294285_2.png) [@Lyra\_North-Onren](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lyra_North-Onren)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 12:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/4 "2019-04-22T12:13:30Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > And Lo! There it was. And thank you for that. > [@Arrendis](#): > > But you? Fighting for what you believe is right, without necessarily a _personal_ animus, or even a personal desire to cause _hurt_ … why would you be my enemy? That’s an incredibly well adjusted stance to take on the matter. I concede that “opponent” is a better description for our relationship, at least in my case as well. > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > I, on the other hand, _am_ willing to say that the Ammatar Mandate is my enemy, and that if you fly loyal to it, by extension so are you. It’s tough. This is also perfectly reasonable. I’m willing to say that the Republic is my _enemy_, but I think that those loyal to it are by in large just my _opponents._ I think in order for a group or individual to be my enemy, they need to have bad intentions and I think the Republic has bad intentions whereas most of its loyalists are _trying_ to do the right thing. They’re just, in my view, wrong about what that may be. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 12:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/5 "2019-04-22T12:28:15Z")
> [@Lyra\_North-Onren](#): > > It’s tough. This is also perfectly reasonable. I’m willing to say that the Republic is my _enemy_ , but I think that those loyal to it are by in large just my _opponents._ I think in order for a group or individual to be my enemy, they need to have bad intentions and I think the Republic has bad intentions whereas most of its loyalists are _trying_ to do the right thing. They’re just, in my view, wrong about what that may be. This is largely semantics. If your definition of ‘enemy’ requires that the person is immoral on an individual, personal-fate level, then I guess most people are not enemies of anyone. Personally I feel that is such a narrow definition that it renders the term meaningless. The concept of “opponent” as someone who works for the enemy but means well seems superfluous. What is ‘the enemy’ if not the people it consists of? I feel that opponents and rivalries belong to competitions, between friendlies - not to wars. EDITed to add: and most ‘wars’ among capsuleers are competition, or rivalry, rather than war. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 1:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/6 "2019-04-22T13:21:51Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > and most ‘wars’ among capsuleers are competition, or rivalry, rather than war. Most. Not all. The key difference for me is a willingness to seek resolution. That seeking may be futile, it may be utterly in vain, but if someone is willing to acknowledge that my issues have merit, and try to work with me to find a solution, then they are not my enemy, even if events conspire to put us on opposite sides in the bloodshed. Someone who will accept only capitulation, or who hates me for what I am, who will never truly be willing to work toward resolution, even if they make motion toward it as part of their planned aggression… those, yes, are my enemies. And I find that far more often among those who aren’t beholden to any of the empires than I do even among the Amarr. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 2:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/7 "2019-04-22T14:37:30Z")
@Lyra_North-Onren Since you actually went through the trouble of explaining I don’t feel its right to not reply. Hopefully I’ll come off more civil sounding (ya, even I looking at it again think I went a little overboard, my apologies). > [@\[MULTO\] A message to the Ammatar Mandate and House Ardishapur](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/multo-a-message-to-the-ammatar-mandate-and-house-ardishapur/149942/54): > > The rest of your post makes it seem a little like you _do_ hate me. Maybe I’m wrong on this, though. I can’t read your heart. Do you turn your guns towards my kin? Then you are my enemy. Hate, love, irrelevant as my personal feelings and my kins’ safety are mutually exclusive. Other aspects of this I’ll get to a little further down. > [@\[MULTO\] A message to the Ammatar Mandate and House Ardishapur](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/multo-a-message-to-the-ammatar-mandate-and-house-ardishapur/149942/54): > > I most certainly can and do think. I just don’t think the things you want me to, so you’ve decided that makes me dumb. I’ll address the ‘second-class citizen’ part the second time you say it. Let’s be efficient about this. It’s better for both of us. To be honest, what you do or don’t think is not my problem nor concern. I do however wish from anyone regardless of of race that they follow their _own_ path in life. Scriptures and some idolized belief system that diverts you from actually self determination I will speak out against, as I have many times before. It is not natural, nor beneficial to anyone aside from those who tend the flock. Do I need to remind you of our people and your adopted loyalties’ shared history? I shouldn’t, nor should either side wish to repeat the atrocities of the past. We will get nowhere retracing our steps. > [@\[MULTO\] A message to the Ammatar Mandate and House Ardishapur](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/multo-a-message-to-the-ammatar-mandate-and-house-ardishapur/149942/54): > > I don’t want to apply for PIE. I enjoy my role as a LUMEN director. You know? For a _second-class citizen_ it’s pretty nice that I’ve been giving roles as a director and a Fleet Commander for such a significant Empire-loyal Alliance. I know you want to point at the one Amarr loyal corp that wouldn’t let me in and forget about any of the ones that would, but I guess being honest would go against your narrative just a bit. So I understand. According to the most recent demographic info I could find (( Eve Source P47, think that’s still considered most recent )) on the empire there are 214.491 Billion free Matari and 10.712 Trillion enslaved. Never mind that difference (which truly shows the empire’s ability to _cultivate man to the faith_ over centuries worth of time), how many holders are of Matari Descent? You say I pulled out the one corporation with such a strict application requirement, yet from the outside looking in it looks like a reflection of Amarrian society. I see no Matari in any position of power (if power isnt a thing or a sin or what have you, its rather convenient those described as “lesser races” within the scriptures that guide you generally seem to not have that no matter how devote they are. Yes I am aware of the current Empress, I simply don’t see evidence of her people and my kin as being held at the same standards) Call that untrue if you will, but that’s what I see. If there is evidence to the contrary I actually would love to see it, I actually like being proven wrong as at least I learn something. > [@\[MULTO\] A message to the Ammatar Mandate and House Ardishapur](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/multo-a-message-to-the-ammatar-mandate-and-house-ardishapur/149942/54): > > I don’t know, aside from a few dark years in my life, I think I’ve been blessed. I don’t feel ignored by God at all. So I’m sorry if I just don’t accept this assertion of yous. > > I mean, I’ve been treated well by my corpmates both before and after having been named CEO of my corporation. After we joined LUMEN, our new friends in SFRIM have welcomed us with open arms. They really do go the extra mile to include me and my associates despite them being far-and-away the larger and more powerful corporation. Honestly, my brothers and sisters in Faith have treated me with respect. > > You’re just going to dismiss me, I know. But you asked and so I responded. Na, I don’t dismiss people, only a fool does. I’ll go one step further and say I don’t wish dark years in your life and am actually happy you have gotten over them. Aside from the most recent events my corporation has never had SFRIM red, including even having them considered as non-engagable on fleets I’ve run in the past. They aren’t actually bad people, though with recent politics in mind we are at odds and I can not say the public policies of the organization itself are something i am a fan of. The only thing I can say is did your god get you out of those dark times or did you? Did you cause those dark times or did the word of your god? You seem to put very little credit towards yourself, nothing makes you you. Your god may have created you but it also gave you free will. Why? So you can ignore what I would imagine would be its greatest gift of all and seek its guidance through life or to use that gift and carve your own path through life? It seems odd to give the gift of free will and expect it to not be used, why give it in the first place, ya know? ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/8 "2019-04-22T14:47:21Z")
> [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > how many holders are of Matari Descent? Two. And to respond to something you said in the other thread… > [@\[MULTO\] A message to the Ammatar Mandate and House Ardishapur](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/multo-a-message-to-the-ammatar-mandate-and-house-ardishapur/149942/51): > > F\*\*\* your god since **IT** ignores those who are truely faithful to **it,** only playing favorites towards those who the scriptures deem “good people.” “True” amarr, not anyone else. This is complete hogwash. What is true is that True Amarr have twisted interpretation of Scripture to claim that faith and God’s love are inherited through blood, but that is the lies of man, not God. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/9 "2019-04-22T14:55:33Z")
If it can be corrupted so easily why is it the law of the land? I do have to commend you for actually bringing that, well, truth to light I just don’t understand why it’s not a more common sentiment. I’ll venture as far as to say there could be a god, it could be truly loving, ect. It could even be something I could see myself viewing as something other than abstract thought. Though if it is willing to allow it’s message to be perverted as it is, it’s not promising. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/10 "2019-04-22T15:07:04Z")
> [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > If it can be corrupted so easily why is it the law of the land? Why is Shakor in power in the Republic? Because the people in power, _have_ power, and they want to keep it that way. Fixing systemic problems isn’t easy. > [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > Though if it is willing to allow it’s message to be perverted as it is, it’s not promising. Because it is _our_ test to make His gift deserving. It’s our challenge, our journey. You talk about the importance of free will, well part of that is allowing us to fail or succeed on our own merits. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/11 "2019-04-22T15:19:34Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The key difference for me is a willingness to seek resolution. That seeking may be futile, it may be utterly in vain, but if someone is willing to acknowledge that my issues have merit, and try to work with me to find a solution, then they are not my enemy, even if events conspire to put us on opposite sides in the bloodshed. Ok, semantics, but here goes. I am working from the conceptualization of [untranslatable in sufficient detail, roughly: family \> clan \> ally \> rival \> outsider \> enemy], where to be a [rival; opponent; competitor] there needs to be some common ground or interest to begin with. An [outsider; neutral; unknown] is neutral to that common interest, an [enemy; devil; abomination] is actively working to destroy it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/12 "2019-04-22T16:46:07Z")
Sure, and within that framework, your use of those terms makes perfect sense. I feel like I just start from a wider sampling of potential ‘common ground or interest’. We’re all people. We don’t want to suffer or die. We don’t want those we care about to suffer or die. Most of us want to try to be decent people, who want to see others prosper. Samira wants all of our people brought into the ‘light of god’. I happen to think that’s an actively bad idea, because of a number of the implications—not the least of which is unwavering obedience to whatever butt is sitting on the Imperial Throne, but also because it means the complete obliteration of our culture, our ways, our own beliefs… and there’s no real evidence that their beliefs are any more right than ours. There are members of other Nullsec organizations who have declared that my organization must be destroyed. They cloak their motivations in things like arguing for the health of New Eden and its civilization, but if that were true, they’d be the ones embracing industrializing and building up infrastructure and population centers, rather than obsessing over going places to find people to kill. Their true motives are simple: years ago, they were powerful, and they used that power to abuse and cow everyone they could. And then we _hurt_ them. We broke that power, and the war has never truly ended. For all their lofty rhetoric, their goals are our annihilation, and their vengeance, nothing more. Samira is not my enemy. They are. Both, in their way, seek the obliteration of something I hold dear. Samira is simply someone I disagree with, even as I believe she is trying to do what she thinks is best for people. My enemies… are not. They seek only to do what is best for themselves. The Amarr who are my enemies are the ones who seek only to do what is best for _them_. What is good for ‘the Amarr’. Amarr who truly do believe that they are seeking what is best for the Minmatar within the Empire… they are opponents. They need to be defeated. But they are not my enemies. We simply disagree… in potentially fatal ways. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/its-own-thread/154295/13 "2019-07-21T16:46:08Z")
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