# Kicking Over Castles news discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Announcements\ **Tags:** official\ **Created:** [December 3, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385 "2019-12-03T18:12:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/343 "2019-12-08T23:25:46Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > You’re asking CCP to solve the problem of human nature. There are however levers which do influence human nature that can be used in designing things. For examples, unclaimable space to separate null groups, no mans land. This helps avoid blueing up since then you aren’t right next door to them. Trade offs between industry and ratting, if you develop a system, it becomes bad for ratting. This creates space pressure. Damage caps. This means that there is only so much firepower that it is worth bringing, which helps keep fleets smaller. Line of sight mechanics/Bumping. The larger the fleet, the more movement and shooting issues you have. You can’t outright stop them so limiting alliances to 200 or anything like that is silly, but you can apply levers where groups cease constantly growing because it brings negatives as well. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/344 "2019-12-08T23:27:41Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > For examples, unclaimable space to separate null groups, no mans land. This helps avoid blueing up since then you aren’t right next door to them. > Trade offs between industry and ratting, if you develop a system, it becomes bad for ratting. This creates space pressure. > Damage caps. This means that there is only so much firepower that it is worth bringing, which helps keep fleets smaller. > Line of sight mechanics/Bumping. The larger the fleet, the more movement and shooting issues you have Spoken like someone who has no idea what they’re talking about. None of this matters because Diplo agreements between alliances will kill conflict. That last one isnt even possible in the game engine. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/345 "2019-12-08T23:30:38Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > Spoken like someone who has no idea what they’re talking about. > > None of this matters because Diplo agreements between alliances will kill conflict. That last one isnt even possible in the game engine. _points at point 1_. It’s a lever that helps reduce the need for diplo agreements. And also makes it more likely for them to break since the no mans land can be the most lucrative ratting area, but no-one has a visible claim & it can be kept as a no mans land via things like no structure anchoring, so intruders are more likely. I have an idea what I’m talking about, human behaviour can be influenced, the EVE system is designed such that growing ever larger is only rewarded due to systems such as anchoring, no line of sight mechanics, and indexes only providing buffs. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 11:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/346 "2019-12-08T23:55:21Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > I have an idea what I’m talking about, human behaviour can be influenced, the EVE system is designed such that growing ever larger is only rewarded due to systems such as anchoring, no line of sight mechanics, and indexes only providing buffs. For a 7 year old player, you still have a lot of faith that CCP can pull that off? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2019, 11:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/347 "2019-12-08T23:59:42Z")
> [@MB\_ThePhotographer](#): > > For a 7 year old player, you still have a lot of faith that CCP can pull that off? Now you are asking a very different question 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 12:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/348 "2019-12-09T00:01:29Z")
Touché! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/349 "2019-12-09T00:04:23Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > And also makes it more likely for them to break since the no mans land can be the most lucrative ratting area, but no-one has a visible claim & it can be kept as a no mans land via things like no structure anchoring, so intruders are more likely. You’ve never actually been party to a diplo agreement, have you? Major alliance already have agreements that would cover things that you say. They already have things like: - Do not anchor structures in each other’s systems - Do not cloaky camp each other’s systems - Do not attack each other’s ratting / mining ships - etc. etc. The “no man’s land” would just divided up with each alliance getting a couple of systems and being told “Do not go into those systems, because those are for the other alliance linemembers”. Your idea wouldn’t work. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > no line of sight mechanics, Again, this is not possible in EVE Online. You would kill the servers with the required computation for every single ship’s line of sight. Nevermind the fact that the ship models aren’t even actually real. They’re just spheres. [Line of sight weapons - Player Features and Ideas Discussion - EVE Online Forums](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/message/1134205/) People have been talking about this since 2012 (and earlier) but it’s not going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 12:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/350 "2019-12-09T00:06:39Z")
I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t see CCP breaking up the blue donuts. They seem to make CCP money and no matter what CCP does to the game, Goons have the manpower and organizational skills to defeat any attempts to break them up. Edit; Checkmate? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Amarisen\_Gream](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/amarisen_gream/32/296747_2.png) [@Amarisen\_Gream](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Amarisen_Gream)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/351 "2019-12-09T03:28:14Z")
Even though I suggest breaking the groups up, I know it will be very hard. It wouldn’t be a problem if we had 40-100k characters logged in at a time. There would be enough mass to handle large groups. I just fear CCP will keep doing this marry-go-round of changes that doesn’t really end up making things better - we’ll have to depend on the groups deciding on making changes for themselves that make a different. ---
**Author:** ![Harley\_Softail](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/harley_softail/32/164332_2.png) [@Harley\_Softail](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Harley_Softail)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/352 "2019-12-09T20:48:13Z")
I’ve got a bad feeling on this one. Like CSM favoring those handful of large PvP groups a bit much. Yesterday I wonder why structures don’t require more material. Today I see they are deciding who gets to keep them. Oh well, maybe I’m wrong – I hope so. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/353 "2019-12-09T21:20:04Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > There are however levers which do influence human nature that can be used in designing things. Another lever that does not impact small groups at all and only impacts large groups is the culling or Rorquals. Limit them to 1 per resource field and limiting use of PANIC to active Indu Core. This makes it necessary to bring barges/exhumers to mine. Small groups already mostly use barges/exhumers to mine because they are cheaper and easier to replace. Large blocks doing Rorqual blobs, on the other hand, all of a sudden have lost a lot of their protection potential as it takes longer to mine and PANIC has to be used strategically. Locust fleets alleviate that a little bit but locust fleets of hundreds of barges are still easier to engage than locust fleets of dozens of Rorquals. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/354 "2019-12-09T21:43:17Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Limit them to 1 per resource field This would have the exact same affect on small groups as large. Moon mining - 1 Rorqual per moon only equals 1 member of a group earns worthwhile income from something the whole groups owns. 1 Rorqual in an Enormous - Same thing, only 1 guy makes decent isk while anyone else is just fodder for griefers and earns nothing compared to the rorqual. > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Locust fleets alleviate that a little bit but locust fleets of hundreds of barges are still easier to engage than locust fleets of dozens of Rorquals. Wouldn’t a better option be to do as players have asked for years - Make it easier to engage the large fleets of Rorquals??? Rorquals aren’t hard to kill if you don’t have super blobs supporting them, they aren’t hard to kill if you can get the right ships in place to attack them. As long as Super blobs are a thing and restricting movement of caps keeps increasing, nothing of consequence changes. ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 11:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/355 "2019-12-09T23:46:16Z")
> [@Amak\_Boma](#): > > get rid of reinforcement timer entirely and extra shield like drifters do and taking it down would be couple hours,once shield is gone the regular shield/armor/hull melts as normal. And open EvE to offline ganking? No thanks ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_Atreides](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alistair_atreides/32/267403_2.png) [@Alistair\_Atreides](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alistair_Atreides)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2019, 11:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/356 "2019-12-09T23:59:14Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > It’s a lever that helps reduce the need for diplo agreements. And also makes it more likely for them to break since the no mans land can be the most lucrative ratting area, but no-one has a visible claim & it can be kept as a no mans land via things like no structure anchoring, so intruders are more likely. When you’re talking to Scoots you have to realize this is a Null-sec’r. Look at his kill list. If I keep up what I’m doing in a Procurer I’ll beat his last year’s kill list in a week. And Alistair isnt even my pvp character. Its my hauler lol. Null-sec’rs are giant bunny rabbits. They think they are tough because they whore themselves out to all of New Eden selling their dirt cheap rocks. If any of the Alliance stopped the “flow of spice” they’d be torn apart by pirates in weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Amra\_Ni-Yesta](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/amra_ni-yesta/32/420140_2.png) [@Amra\_Ni-Yesta](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Amra_Ni-Yesta)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 5:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/357 "2019-12-10T05:40:48Z")
> [@Harley\_Softail](#): > > Like CSM favoring those handful of large PvP You voted for them… ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 6:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/358 "2019-12-10T06:49:26Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > This would have the exact same affect on small groups as large. It would not. Small groups do not use Rorquals nearly as much as large groups do. The people and groups that I watch mine moons usually use Procurors or Skiffs and Orcas or Porpoises. Rorquals attract way too much attention and cannot be defended against attackers if you do not have the muscle/big alt/player numbers behind you. That is why smaller groups do not use Rorquals and would not be impacted by such a change. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > 1 Rorqual in an Enormous - Same thing, only 1 guy makes decent isk while anyone else is just fodder for griefers and earns nothing compared to the rorqual. That is only partially true. That one person also runs a much greater risk of loss. The other guy with his alt army or Hulks et al can just warp off if hostiles came into system. That alt army also needs to invest much less ISK to mine better than a Rorqual. Even at the first change iteration, when the Rorqual mined as much as 4 Hulks, 4 Hulks are still cheaper than a Rorqual and their mining yield or even that of Skiffs is not too bad. The income may drop but that’s hardly an issue. Before Rorquals were introduced, people mined belts just fine and these ships only gave boosts, as they were intended to do. This is the scenario that needs to come back in order to fix big chunk of issues that have been plaguing EVE for years. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > Rorquals aren’t hard to kill if you don’t have super blobs supporting them, they aren’t hard to kill if you can get the right ships in place to attack them. And that is exactly why smaller groups with a brain don’t use them and which is why this change would not impact smaller groups. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > Wouldn’t a better option be to do as players have asked for years - Make it easier to engage the large fleets of Rorquals??? That is what CCP has been trying to do for the last 2 years. Tank reduction, yield reduction, cyno changes, even titan and super cap application changes. It has not changed a thing. Not to mention that 5, 10 or more Rorquals in a belt are a serious threat to not fully prepared attackers because of the amount of bonused drones they can use. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > As long as Super blobs are a thing and restricting movement of caps keeps increasing, nothing of consequence changes. CCP has done that and it has not changed much. PANIC can and does still buy enough time for people to respond. Limiting the numbers of Rorquals per belt, limiting how they can use PANIC and requiring people to bring more engageable ships such as exhumers and barges to the belts will change this. [It will lead to more of this](https://zkillboard.com/related/30004733/201811102100/) on a regular basis, or more skirmishes against present defender fleets, as opposed to rare mega dunks like that thing in Fountain the other week. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 9:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/359 "2019-12-10T09:33:23Z")
Ok, 1 you are either really new and so don’t know much about the game OR (more likely) 2, just a troll who understands nothing about the game > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > CCP has done that and it has not changed much. CCP reduced the ability of those who are willing to attack, they haven’t touched on the ability of Bloc’s to respond with Super blobs - Again CCP “balancing” the game in favour of the largest groups. > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > That is what CCP has been trying to do for the last 2 years Everything CCP has done for the last few years (goes back further than 2) has been a benefit to larger groups at the expense of smaller groups > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > That is only partially true. That one person also runs a much greater risk of loss. The other guy with his alt army or Hulks et al can just warp off if hostiles came into system. That alt army also needs to invest much less ISK to mine better than a Rorqual. Wow you blew your own argument out of the water when you posted [Related Kills | PDE-U3 | 2018-11-10 21:00 | zKillboard](https://zkillboard.com/related/30004733/201811102100/) I don’t know anyone who has a 35 bil Rorqaul or is “at risk” as a fleet of Exhumers to such a small gang. NB; I belong to a small alliance, not aligned to a Bloc and use my Rorqual regularly - You just need to be smart about it. > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Small groups do not use Rorquals nearly as much as large groups do Yes sorry to say but they do, they get used at every possible opportunity - As I said, you just have to be smart about it. ---
**Author:** ![Klastinga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/klastinga/32/468826_2.png) [@Klastinga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Klastinga)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 11:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/360 "2019-12-10T11:20:47Z")
Why Kicking Over Castles update does not include Custom Offices into timer changes? Tons of afk corps have hundreds of poco litter everywhere in space…?? ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 11:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/361 "2019-12-10T11:43:35Z")
Becasue that would be logical… ---
**Author:** ![Kathy\_Iron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kathy_iron/32/316898_2.png) [@Kathy\_Iron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kathy_Iron)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 12:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/362 "2019-12-10T12:02:48Z")
How hard is it to make the anchor time +/- 2hours the reinforce timer? Unreal so now I could theoretically be at work and not be able to defend my structures. Good job. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385.md?page=16) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385.md?page=18)