# Kicking Over Castles news discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Announcements\ **Tags:** official\ **Created:** [December 3, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385 "2019-12-03T18:12:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Lugburz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugburz/32/486230_2.png) [@Lugburz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugburz)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 8:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/459 "2019-12-25T08:49:19Z")
Must admit i preferred pos tbvh; Citadels looked good when they came out… but yeh asset safety, timers and citadel spam along with free repairs, tether and a myriad of other issues have made them seem like a real dumb implementation. I mean i can go roam in someone elses space and use their own citadels to effectively send any loot back to hs… which is really really nice… for me lol, but its dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 10:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/460 "2019-12-25T10:33:32Z")
Asset safety was needed. POS barely got used for that reason and citadels store way way more stuff than POS. As is drop box if they aren’t going to be fully alliance locked. Maybe they should be alliance locked for docking of course, or entirely Freeport and once you freeport you can’t lock out individual people. I think that’s a separate conversation though. Timers are similarly never going to vanish. Even POS had a form of them and they got auto defence capable of insti killing some targets and could be packed up at short notice. Citadels lost both of those perks, loosing timers as well would just present them with nothing but negatives. ---
**Author:** ![Lugburz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugburz/32/486230_2.png) [@Lugburz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugburz)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 11:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/461 "2019-12-25T11:09:22Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Citadels lost both of those perks But you can put a citadel up away from a moon, & jump clone to/in them, and they have damage cap which pos never had; and pos did have a personal hangar added but tbh i never used one. I think an amalgamation of the two designs maybe would have fared better, perhaps allowing cits to be placed at planets and moons, off gates; giving them better defences that work on their own (like pos guns) Basically a pos, with less offensive capability but more living support stuff… and tether should be a module or rig… Asset safety is a touchy subject too, perhaps there should simply be a rig for that too? Free repair is nice but somehow it doesnt sit right, magically repairing any damage i mean… ---
**Author:** ![Shadow\_Badaaz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shadow_badaaz/32/176885_2.png) [@Shadow\_Badaaz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shadow_Badaaz)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/462 "2019-12-27T19:43:41Z")
Morning Ladies & Gents, I need help with the details of the Medium Structure ADM (4.0) change. Too much has been left out of the explanation. Smart People, please assist… 1. What happens if you already have a structure in 4.0+ Nullsec? Does it blow up? Do I have to move it? Are you paying for all the rigs in that case? 2. What if I build one in ADM 3.9- space, and it turns into 4.0+ tomorrow? Does my structure blow up? Move it? Is CCP going to pay for my rigs? 3. What other new restrictions are falling onto individual or small corp players in 4.0+ space? Can we no longer use Sov-held structures there either? Please be detailed in your answer here - I was about to make a major investment into this game, but I need to know how it works or its pointless. _Am I, for example, going to have to pay Jump Gate tolls to GoonSwarm just to even travel through 4.0+ - - or are you waiting till next month to make that change?_ ---
**Author:** ![Amra\_Ni-Yesta](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/amra_ni-yesta/32/420140_2.png) [@Amra\_Ni-Yesta](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Amra_Ni-Yesta)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/464 "2019-12-29T13:59:49Z")
So yeah thank you ccp, i was unanchoring 2 citas bcse of your patch, a solo punk dual account came to shoot them, rf timmer is the 31th of december 20h00… i have something else to do than defending 2 citas… The solo punk is part of an alliance, even if i come with friends to defend i don’t think he will show up but every punk who crosse a hole and see that will shoot it, specially big groups… So thank you ! Sorry I am maybe super dumb but i don’t see the fun in it or even a challange. It push me simply to leave wh space for good. 5 years living in wh space. Oh and small post scriptum : your new triglavian ships made that citadels are totally not adapted to tank them. Too few of them reach max dps super easy. And the 60 second cool down on the warp disruptor for cita is just brilliant… I don’t even know why there is any cooldown on those. You want to switch target ? You can’t ! Brilliant. They warp out before 60 sec. ---
**Author:** ![Lugburz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugburz/32/486230_2.png) [@Lugburz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugburz)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/465 "2019-12-30T21:58:36Z")
Because some bad nullbears failed at killing citadel with their gang setup and the complained about it. Also. thinking bout basing out of a pos again; at least it has decent defences even when your offline. ---
**Author:** ![Lugburz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugburz/32/486230_2.png) [@Lugburz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugburz)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/466 "2019-12-30T22:01:54Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Asset safety was needed. POS barely got used for that reason … pos got used plenty… every damn player in wh would have one of their own… complete asset safety was never needed; if you think it is needed then you must feel that every ship i lose in any type of combat should also be replaced… thats a dull thought dont you think? ---
**Author:** ![Amra\_Ni-Yesta](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/amra_ni-yesta/32/420140_2.png) [@Amra\_Ni-Yesta](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Amra_Ni-Yesta)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 12:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/467 "2019-12-31T12:24:05Z")
Yes, pos where great and good. The free rep and the fact you can right click multifit are the only adventage of the cita. ---
**Author:** ![Merovee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merovee/32/167629_2.png) [@Merovee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merovee)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/468 "2019-12-31T18:16:36Z")
LoL this thread is just like a BO thread accepting its in reversed order. Anyway no asset safety if you can’t keep it online it’s dead in the water, it’s a loot pinata. There is alot of npc stations around to store your stuff and ships. For a casual play style this is good enough. My main concern is that Amarr is only a few jumps away from Jita, the long jump gates has ruined the sense of vastness the game once had, I know off topic, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/469 "2019-12-31T18:26:19Z")
> [@Merovee](#): > > My main concern is that Amarr is only a few jumps away from Jita Did CCP designate Amarr as a Trade Hub, or was it player activity that made it one ? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/470 "2019-12-31T18:42:06Z")
> [@Merovee](#): > > Anyway no asset safety if you can’t keep it online it’s dead in the water, it’s a loot pinata So I store some stuff in a Freeport, go away for three months and it’s all looted by the owners buddies as a scam… See the problem here? No asset safety even if it’s limited to low power structures will massively reduce the use of citadels. ---
**Author:** ![Lugburz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugburz/32/486230_2.png) [@Lugburz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugburz)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 8:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/471 "2019-12-31T20:55:32Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > So I store some stuff in a Freeport, go away for three months and it’s all looted by the owners buddies as a scam… > See the problem here? Your inability to plan ahead properly is no ones issue but your own. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > No asset safety even if it’s limited to low power structures will massively reduce the use of citadels. EXACTLY!!! ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/472 "2019-12-31T22:44:06Z")
Yeah… we don’t need to reduce the active use of the structures. If dead structures are an issue, then we make them easier to take down by removing rig slots and instead rolling those bonuses into faction variants of modules, which then also gives better loot on kills. (And provide the owner at least a few minutes of security of deanchoring a structure where it can’t be stolen simply by someone spamming loot all faster with an NPC Corp alt). And once they are easier to take down, then we make them easier to kill in low power since we know low power ones are actually neglected, not mothballed like you have to do now to avoid destroying billions in rig value. So we can have them easier to kill then. ---
**Author:** ![Merovee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merovee/32/167629_2.png) [@Merovee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merovee)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/473 "2020-01-01T21:47:50Z")
From the beginning it always been player driven, the only thing that has changed was Ours. to Jita when CCP eliminated a gate in Ours., the trades shifted to Jita. In '03 Ours. was my home system. ---
**Author:** ![Merovee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merovee/32/167629_2.png) [@Merovee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merovee)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 2:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/474 "2020-01-02T02:45:20Z")
Why is it a problem couldn’t you have placed buy orders to have the structures refilled with fuel? If you can’t then this is a CCPlease problem. There are lots of npc stations in nearby systems you can store your stuff. When I pick area of operation I pick a system in hisec next to lowsec area. I’m doing this with ths character for the first time as my main. I’m trying something different to help myself to get back into the game after a long break. EVE has improved greatly so it’s taking a little longer for me to assimilate to the game. ---
**Author:** ![Harley\_Softail](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/harley_softail/32/164332_2.png) [@Harley\_Softail](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Harley_Softail)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/475 "2020-01-02T21:54:18Z")
Though I, in fact, did not vote for our current CSM members, I want you to know that the 💙 came from me. They DID get voted in. That point was also my point. Players, especially those of certain reclusive, thinking-on-their-own kind of nature, might benefit from considering those votes valuable. Hypothetically if all of CSM were Goons (just an example - breathe), who do you imagine would benefit? Who gets punished? Did you think you the positions meant something about YOUR interests? …if your rep is in the seat, okay. And sorry if this “response” landed poorly from the phone fingering 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 11:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/476 "2020-01-06T11:37:11Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > None of this matters because Diplo agreements between alliances will kill conflict. That last one isnt even possible in the game engine. CCP could implement a treaty mechanic that prevents weapons use, even in null with red safety. Think of it like a null security space reverse war-declaration mechanic. Look at the hyper net relay, that’s a market mechanic for a universal market region. CCP dev can code some pretty nice stuff when they aren’t stuck in the bowels of a chat system or having to nerf OP fax rep mechanics. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > And also makes it more likely for them to break since the no mans land can be the most lucrative ratting area, but no-one has a visible claim & it can be kept as a no mans land via things like no structure anchoring, so intruders are more likely. I think what they are talking about is without an Ihub there’s no ore and no combat sites, so its like saying the ocean is the best place for a mushroom farm, because there are fewest weeds growing there… > [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > Do not anchor structures in each other’s systems That’s actually a thing now. > [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > The “no man’s land” would just divided up with each alliance getting a couple of systems and being told “Do not go into those systems, because those are for the other alliance linemembers”. Hmm. Ihub taxes at %100 for PvE unless you are on X ← ACL ? > [@Harley\_Softail](#): > > Like CSM favoring those handful of large PvP groups a bit much. If this game doesn’t become Delve online it’ll become Pandemic Online. > [@Harley\_Softail](#): > > I wonder why structures don’t require more material. I wonder why structure blueprints for Austrahus’s are pointless to research to ME 10. Why is a market component even needed on something that doesn’t have the ability to fit a market module? > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Another lever that does not impact small groups at all and only impacts large groups is the culling or Rorquals. Constrain the source, not the means of production. Its come true with the veld and spud changes in null. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > This would have the exact same affect on small groups as large. > Moon mining - 1 Rorqual per moon only equals 1 member of a group earns worthwhile income from something the whole groups owns. No, 1 active industrial core per mining belt is smart. A rorqual in a moon anom will have to move to keep being in range of ores anyway, they won’t be able to just sit and mine for 4 hours straight unless they want their excavators clocking up some serious air miles. Neither is there anything stopping everyone else getting into barges and exhumers and being able to reach like 50 km’s away. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > Rorquals aren’t hard to kill if you don’t have super blobs supporting them, they aren’t hard to kill if you can get the right ships in place to attack them. Please. 1 rorqual guy that mines as much as 5 hulks is risking 10+ billion ISK, where as the hulks are at most 500 mill a pop. The problem happening now is that everyone can mine in a rorqual at the same time, its inefficient to do it any other way. Locking a belt to 1 active industrial core creates a self-limiting valve. Maybe wars might even start between groups because XYZ feels that they deserve more time as active rorqual. > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > And open EvE to offline ganking? No thanks Then it would just be Rust, but in space. > [@Alistair\_Atreides](#): > > Null-sec’rs are giant bunny rabbits. So you’re saying Pandemic Horde, Mercenary Colation, Delve, all look like they are due for Cotton-tailed logo update? > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > That is why smaller groups do not use Rorquals and would not be impacted by such a change. Yup, the small guys even have rules about not doing PvE in anything that attracts attention. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > Yes sorry to say but they do, they get used at every possible opportunity - As I said, you just have to be smart about it. Poor man’s jump freighter doesn’t count. > [@Klastinga](#): > > Why Kicking Over Castles update does not include Custom Offices into timer changes? Tons of afk corps have hundreds of poco litter everywhere in space…?? Bring on stairbase charters for POCO’s in empire space? > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Rorquals were originally designed to be the ultimate mining booster and not the ultimate mining ship. My old null sec corporation used to have a guy boosting from a POS in a rorqual. I think they haven’t used it since the off grid boosting changed happened. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > Actually all they need to do is make it harder for Rorquals to be so easily multiboxed - I’ve seen “fleets” of 50+ Rorquals all with the same name plus a number, indicating they are all owned by the same player - That needs to be fixed. Yeah that’s just sad. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Yeah, sure. Just like all the other things CCP’s though were amazingly ‘fun’, like entosising. Lol. Or having to fight drifters to get the bits to make the entosis. > [@Sylvia\_Kildare](#): > > And yes, I remember 0.99 gas once upon a time. Now I’d be happy with 1.99. $0.12 a liter in 1972. > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > What I want is that you are to stay at your computer when you mine. And when you cloaky camp 50 systems with your afk-bot-herd. > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Carrier ratters have to do that and everyone cheered for it. Yet there were still bots running supers in null. > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > In addition, what I want is that this PANIC is not a safe all, defy all attacks button like it is now. If that Rorqual PANICs, it should be a strategic decision: Safe your exhumer fleet now but risk getting dropped by a dread just after, or let some of the exhumers die and safe your PANIC for later to safe your insanely good booster. Um, isn’t it supposed to lock all the small ships in place and make them invulnerable? Did that mechanic get dropped on the way to implementation? > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > And the economy would recover a bit because a lot less minerals would flood the markets, as well as Titans and supers would become more expensive again as they should. Tritanium prices are on the way up. Attack the supply, not the means. Wins every time, punishes equally. > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > And neither does CCP. Sometimes I think they do understand, they just don’t care. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > So, do you believe that over half our alliance not be able to mine the moon ore because the Rorquals would be too close together? If it were a PvP fleet would everyone show up in a damnation expecting to be a booster? Nothing stoping either from participating, just change into an appropriate ship. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 12:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/477 "2020-01-06T12:29:50Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Look at the hyper net relay, that’s a market mechanic for a universal market region. CCP dev can code some pretty nice stuff when they aren’t stuck in the bowels of a chat system or having to nerf OP fax rep mechanics. Word is, that was 2 years or so of work by 1 guy in his spare time, and for all the work that went into the UI, when it comes to how the thing actually works and what it looked like when it hit sisi… it shows. Don’t go seeing some masterful piece of code where there ain’t one. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > No, 1 active industrial core per mining belt is smart. A rorqual in a moon anom will have to move to keep being in range of ores anyway, they won’t be able to just sit and mine for 4 hours straight unless they want their excavators clocking up some serious air miles. Neither is there anything stopping everyone else getting into barges and exhumers and being able to reach like 50 km’s away. They already have to move. Moon belts are just a little smaller than 160km across. Just enough that you can’t warp from rock to rock. 1 core per belt isn’t the issue. The issue is getting from moon to moon. Jump-capable ships make that feasible. Moving a few hundred exhumers around multiple times a day… isn’t. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > 1 rorqual guy that mines as much as 5 hulks doesn’t exist anymore. The changes to excavators saw to that, even before accounting for the speed of them coming back. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 12:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/478 "2020-01-06T12:50:43Z")
Oh hello Arrendis. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Word is, that was 2 years or so of work by 1 guy in his spare time, and for all the work that went into the UI, when it comes to how the thing actually works and what it looked like when it hit sisi… it shows. That’s a shame. Like the linux client, it seems there are parts to this game that get no love, yet there’s a whole area that makes functionally irrelevant ship skins. Maybe CCP would be nice enough to make a “Tux The Penguin” skin that can only be active on linux based clients. I’d gladly hand over $10-$15 to ensure it stops being something one guy does in their spare time to Actually Supported ™. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Don’t go seeing some masterful piece of code where there ain’t one. Oh I know I’m looking at a complex ball of spaghetti in a shiny looking box. One day I hope to sit down and have a nice chat with CCP about the reason they have a shared type id’s split by ranges. > [@Arrendis](#): > > The issue is getting from moon to moon. Jump-capable ships make that feasible. Moving a few hundred exhumers around multiple times a day… isn’t. If the rorqual could be used like a real carrier that would give it purpose outside of mining. The damn thing has a clone bay for. a reason right? Reminds me of when WoW introduced two seat flying mounts, just the rorqual could carry a bit more. Maybe an industrial portal generator to ‘blops’ your miners through? > [@Arrendis](#): > > doesn’t exist anymore. Sad. Now people just use T2 drones on rorquals, beats the yield of being in a hulk without the insanely high cost. One day I hope CCP releases a SOCT style ( flat amor/shield resist profile) replacement for mining ships, right now its too much towards the favour of shield tanking space for it to be anywhere near fair. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2020, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385/479 "2020-01-06T13:28:06Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Tritanium prices are on the way up. Attack the supply, not the means. Wins every time, punishes equally. Trit has been going up for ages. Talk to me again when Pyerite is more expensive than Trit again. Only then a semblance of normality returns. It is also misguided and dumb to “punish [everything] equally”. Small groups have not flooded the market with minerals, only the biggest groups have. Small groups have been punished by that development because their income dwindled while big groups could afford just yet another Rorqual to compensate or replace. Equal punishment is what brought us here and is the misguided way that CCP follows along. EVE does not need misguided punishment to be fixed, it needs appropriately targeted punishment. But that is something CCP does not understand or care about either. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385.md?page=21) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/kicking-over-castles-news-discussion/204385.md?page=23)