# Legal/Ethical question regarding invasive 3rd party EVE platforms **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 26, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308 "2018-09-26T01:36:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 10:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/83 "2018-09-28T10:40:23Z")
> [@Ima\_Wreckyou](#): > > Why? Ask yourself that. ---
**Author:** ![Ima\_Wreckyou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ima_wreckyou/32/235531_2.png) [@Ima\_Wreckyou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ima_Wreckyou)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 10:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/84 "2018-09-28T10:52:19Z")
Wow, why do you have to trash every single thread with your pedantic posting man? ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 10:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/85 "2018-09-28T10:53:27Z")
> [@Ima\_Wreckyou](#): > > Wow, why do you have to trash every single thread with your pedantic posting man? Projecting again. * * * If I had by way, Id remove all 3rd party platforms from mining EVE data. No killboard, no market watch, no dotlan. ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/86 "2018-09-28T11:05:00Z")
Someone should make an animated gif of a stamp being applied that says “salvoshed”. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![zluq\_zabaa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zluq_zabaa/32/19011_2.png) [@zluq\_zabaa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zluq_zabaa)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 11:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/87 "2018-09-28T11:17:35Z")
> [@Thomas\_Tur\_Bando](#): > > I’ll do it because I see nothing wrong with saying this. For example, zKill has a tracker that shows a graph of the user’s online/active times. If someone knows you personally and monitor that, they can see when you’re not home and rob your house. Of course that’s just an example, and a bit extreme. But you see the point, your private information are your private information for a reason. Can you explain this a bit more in depth? Do you mean Zkill “tracks” your online times, because when you appear in a killmail, it is clear that you have been online? Or do you mean they actually track your online time and if so - how? The only way I see this happening, is if you are being logged in to their site and/or allowing them access to sensitive information that is protected by authentication measures. If so, it would lead to the question of wether or not they’ve properly informed you about what they are doing with the data or not. So, what do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Ima\_Wreckyou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ima_wreckyou/32/235531_2.png) [@Ima\_Wreckyou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ima_Wreckyou)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 11:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/88 "2018-09-28T11:22:16Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > He is telling you its already working, and this is just the beginning of how bad it will get. > I agree with that. No he was saying that some consultant who probably wanted or did sell him some tech told him its working. That is something completely different. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 11:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/89 "2018-09-28T11:33:14Z")
> [@Ima\_Wreckyou](#): > > > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > > > He is telling you its already working, and this is just the beginning of how bad it will get. > > I agree with that. > > No he was saying that some consultant who probably wanted or did sell him some tech told him its working. That is something completely different. The consultant wasnt selling anything except his expertise to inform staff of developments in the field. ---
**Author:** ![JuuR\_Zibaoo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/juur_zibaoo/32/375053_2.png) [@JuuR\_Zibaoo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JuuR_Zibaoo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 11:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/90 "2018-09-28T11:45:10Z")
hi @Thomas_Tur_Bando i guess the US can change the law but it will not effect zKill or EU or others arround EVE why? oh because the law will be about your personal data … yours … not your chars … if the law changes it will be about real persons data not ingame data about fictional characters … so nothing to worry about for you or others … zKill will never get and never got any data about real life persons … its all about fictional game characters so everything is good JuuR ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 11:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/91 "2018-09-28T11:52:24Z")
> [@JuuR\_Zibaoo](#): > > if the law changes it will be about real persons data nut ingame data about fictional characters … The line drawn in water between the two is increasingly vague and unclear, leading to them bleeding into each other. IT giants, and govs, want the two merged. Mark my words, within the next 20yrs, you and all your activity online will be synonymous. The notion of virtual anonymity will cease to exist in any practical sense. You, and any persona you attempt to assume online in anyway, will be fused together. ---
**Author:** ![JuuR\_Zibaoo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/juur_zibaoo/32/375053_2.png) [@JuuR\_Zibaoo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JuuR_Zibaoo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 11:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/92 "2018-09-28T11:57:48Z")
@Salvos_Rhoska you cant mix that n any case … i am 12 chars in EVE … ok … maybe i am schizophrenic but 12 persons is not possible i guess and in a other game i could be a pink squirrel or a sparcling unicorn … i guess most female chars are not femal in real life … so this “data” is total fiction … how you want to mix up that? JuuR ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 12:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/93 "2018-09-28T12:07:32Z")
> [@JuuR\_Zibaoo](#): > > i am 12 chars in EVE … ok … maybe i am schizophrenic but 12 persons is not possible Thats exactly the point, and why IT/govs will get their way on this. All alts/pseudonyms/aliases etc are YOURS. There is only one person behind them, and that is whom they want to get at. I know this is difficult to understand, but in terms of legality, all expressions of you, in any form, are from you. ---
**Author:** ![JuuR\_Zibaoo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/juur_zibaoo/32/375053_2.png) [@JuuR\_Zibaoo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JuuR_Zibaoo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 12:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/94 "2018-09-28T12:17:58Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > There is only one person behind them, and that is whom they want to get at. you mixing up 2 different things here … the OP was about the other site … how protected is the data of a fictonal char not the person behind the char JuuR ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 12:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/95 "2018-09-28T12:19:33Z")
> [@JuuR\_Zibaoo](#): > > how protected is the data of a fictonal char not the person behind the char The data of the “fictional char”, which is operated by a person, is not protected in any way at all. PS : The existence of that char is not fictional. It actually exists as what it is, as does the person that operates it. ---
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 12:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/96 "2018-09-28T12:31:32Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > PS : The existence of that char is not fictional. It actually exists as what it is, as does the person that operates it. You do talk the most utter bollocks at times. What’s next ? “How many avatars can you fit on the head of a pin” ?? ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/97 "2018-09-28T12:50:37Z")
> [@Dravick\_Afterthought](#): > > You do talk the most utter bollocks at times. You dont get it… You are still thinking in antiquated terms/paradigm. All that exists, is real. Your aliases/alts/pseudonyms/etc all exist, and they exist because you made them and operate them. To quote Spock, from Star Trek, whom is a fictional character, in a fiction based real TV series, portrayed by a real person and speaking real words: **“Nothing unreal exists.”** Take some time to think about that. Its profound. ---
**Author:** ![zluq\_zabaa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zluq_zabaa/32/19011_2.png) [@zluq\_zabaa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zluq_zabaa)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/98 "2018-09-28T12:58:07Z")
> [@Zachri](#): > > Regardless of his failings, you’d be surprised how valuable gaming turns out to be for applied science of behavioural analytics. I know I was, well, I was shocked. It’s not something you think about. I mean, you have a life, a job, a wife, one or two mistresses and a flexible secretary. And you play a game. The idea that what you do in that game is used for profiling in service of predictability is … wtf. It’s not even wtf. What kind of games we play and the way we do, tells a lot about us. It’s not anywhere near or near as simple as the smear media tries to tell us, but there are deep connections between who we are in other spheres and who we are in games. The most basic thing is to look at what games you play and how long you stick to them. Chosing to play EVE Online, sticking with it or leaving it, is a prime example. While this alone can never give us conclusive information about you, mixed with other data, possible out-of-game data, it may be used to form a greater picture. As with most sources of data about people or their different persona, it is not the single trace that creates an issue, it is the ability to effectively link sets of data. In the case of Zkillboard this would have to be done either directly or indirectly to cause any concern. Directly would mean that a state-actor or someone with similar power, can directly link your real life to the data appearing on Zkillboard. If they are able to do this however, they are also able to monitor your gaming behaviour more in depth than Zkill ever could. If anything Zkill could make it easier for such a party, taken that they’re happy with the inconclusive nature of the data on Zkill (not everyone shares their killmails with Zk etc). Indirectly would mean that they are not able to directly link your real life person A with the game persona B, but they are able to indirectly match them after collecting enough data. For this to be possible, they again need to be a state actor with far more ressources at hand than for the “direct” approach. They’d need to generally profile everybodies gaming behaviour with sources such as Zkillboard and gain enough data to create a somewhat semi-conclusive profile for each of them. At the same time, they’d have to create a profile about your real life person in other ways that is _at least_ conclusive enough for them to find strong behavorial links between real life person A and game persona B. The sweet understatement “big data” makes this seem possible, but we’ve seen from many other examples how often this actually fails and leads to completely wrong predictions or links that are simply not there. While extensive data about your choice of games and your gaming behaviour might give a number of institutions or private companies something to work with when it comes to predicting your behaviour, it needs to be reliably linked to your real life person to allow for such predictions. Not that they necessarily care about being precise, but that’s a sub-matter. Still, the question of this thread is not a general one, but specifically regarding the possible role of Zkill in such undertakings. The data there is inconclusive regarding your gaming behaviour in EVE. It is not automatically linked to your real life person. The abstraction layer “Zkill” is giving far less information than the game itself would spill. > [@Zachri](#): > > Also, CCP really isn’t in any position to impose limits, what are they going to do, tell ESI platforms to not use Facebook or block XYZ tracking on their platforms? They could, but they won’t. I can see this kind of link being part of the legislation in development in the EU. For privacy, but also for the notion of “competition” it is companies like Facebook and Alphabet that are of the greatest concern, but they are only efficiently using what is possible. The underlaying problem is one of network infrastructure and since there is not the slightest hint of legislation going towards a “right to anonymity online”, this issue will prevail. The only question is who can legally link your data and taken the gravity of such profiles and the power that comes with holding billions of these, I can see that states see their monopoly of power (to guarantee/steer/manage business/personal rights/access) threatened by private companies and start legislating them. The positive side-effect on consumer and privacy rights, is not to be either under- or overestimated. It is still going to be up to the user to make choices between comfort and privacy, risk and effort, predictability and feasability. If you don’t want anyone to know that you’re playing EVE, there is no 100% guarantee to be able to do that. The highest effort and acceptance of in-game limits, will allow for a relatively large chance to play EVE undetected by others. The question is: do you want that? Do you want to stop playing games like you want to play them, because someone may or is creating a profile of your online persona including your gaming data? If so, this doesn’t protect you at all from being profiled, because the fact that you stop playing a game at the slightest hint of leaving a trace of behavorial data behind, may tell me a lot about you as well. There is no outside of this logic anymore. You’re in no matter if you like it or not. Laws or technical barriers are certainly not useless and neither are individual steps being taken to avoid having your mean solo-PVP killboard linked with your job as a nurse. However, calling Zkill “invasive”, as the OP suggests, completely misses the point. Sharing of any kind of personal, online-persona information or meta-data is something that is neither only bad or only good - it always depends. The management of all that is beyond every persons abilities and I’d say even consciousness about themselves. Thus, meandering about Zkill displaying publicly available information, is nothing but a flare. It’s like hearing about the imminent dangers of climate change to life on earth and eating the pacification pill of changing some personal behaviour (eating less meat, turning off the lights etc.) as if this could ever tackle the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/99 "2018-09-28T13:00:31Z")
> [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > it always depends Everything depends on something. ---
**Author:** ![Dirk\_Kajhone](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dirk_kajhone/32/419135_2.png) [@Dirk\_Kajhone](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dirk_Kajhone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/100 "2018-09-28T17:07:42Z")
Likely already mentioned, but too much text to read all the details. Your personal information is your own, personal, identity. Name, phone number, address, identification numbers, banking info, etc. Email address used is somewhat grey area, since it is often anonymous and unlinked to your other info, but is generally considered personal info. Game or other software oriented stats (how many kills you made, or died, or how much credits you have) are not generally considered personal info unless, for instance, the game stats are tied directly to your actual name (not your game nickname), your email address, or your IP address or something else directly from your personal info. I am not aware of any games that do this, btw. Tracking your game stats on something like zKillboard, is equivalent to tracking your spending behaviour by analyzing how many cars in a Walmart parking lot are SUVs vs sedans vs trucks. They may show general ‘gamer behaviour’ trends but they are not linked to you personally. You may say “But my game nickname is my real name!”. Well, that’s on you, has nothing to do with the legality or general usage of the gaming industry. ---
**Author:** ![JuuR\_Zibaoo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/juur_zibaoo/32/375053_2.png) [@JuuR\_Zibaoo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JuuR_Zibaoo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/101 "2018-09-28T17:27:08Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > PS : The existence of that char is not fictional. It actually exists as what it is, as does the person that operates it. nooooo way … it exists? ok … undock your titan please … you cant? why? it exists you said its is fictonal … 100% sifi … its not real … the person behind the chars is something different … the OP was about the chars not the person behind … most of the other stuff was about something not related to the OP … so if we talk about something here we have to keep the OP in the eyes and this stuff ir really clear in any point if a goverment want to know stuff behind the chars or ather things or a terror group ants something els and the crazy clown has green blood … doesnt matter … the OP matters … oh 1 button can delete your char … your account … all ylur accounts or my accounts so it is not real … sorry to say its just a game JuuR ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308/102 "2018-09-28T18:10:08Z")
> [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](#): > > Someone should make an animated gif of a stamp being applied that says “salvoshed”. 😛 I would pay money for that! [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/legal-ethical-question-regarding-invasive-3rd-party-eve-platforms/109308.md?page=6)