# Let’s talk about suspect flags for T4/5 **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [July 21, 2019, 9:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057 "2019-07-21T09:02:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 1:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/221 "2019-08-03T13:38:02Z")
The no-tether timer appears over the center console and does not disappear on movement or warp. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/222 "2019-08-03T13:57:50Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Do you think HS is a more dangerous place to run Abyssals than Null? TBH, no way in hell is HS more dangerous, regardless of flag, especially with the _current_ NS environment. You can’t actually open the things within 1000km of a citadel, so while you can be on grid with your HQ, they’ll be waving at you out the windows when the cloaky loki gang or 20 bombers decloaks, blaps you, and pisses off. They’re no more “perfectly safe” in sovnull than any other subcap (which is to say, it’s dead before the response fleet even undocked) and, no, we’re not all going to form up to personally stand guard over some dweeb who wants to do special-interest krabbing in a too-blingy ship when it’s safer and less inconvenient for everyone else if he just rats in his super, which can actually survive long enough that everyone else can _respond_ to an attack on him instead of having to tank our own income to babysit. > [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > Thanks, yes, right, the cargo restrictions. > > EDIT: But you could eject everything when still in Abyss. Your Orca alt warns you about the upcoming gank. So you only have your bare ship when entering kspace again. Orca has a fleet hangar in addition to the ship maintenance bay. Drag loot into fleet hangar, stuff ship into orca. And yes, as you said, I believe the invulnerability timer is an entire minute. What I’m not entire certain about is if either the suspect or invuln flags would interfere with orca docking. Unfortunately I’m not in a position to try it on TQ right now, and singularity isn’t up. ---
**Author:** ![Onictus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/onictus/32/277200_2.png) [@Onictus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Onictus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/223 "2019-08-03T14:58:27Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > TBH, no way in hell is HS more dangerous, regardless of flag, especially with the _current_ NS environment. > > You can’t actually open the things within 1000km of a citadel, so while you can be on grid with your HQ, they’ll be waving at you out the windows when the cloaky loki gang or 20 bombers decloaks, blaps you, and pisses off. > > They’re no more “perfectly safe” in sovnull than any other subcap (which is to say, it’s dead before the response fleet even undocked) and, no, we’re not all going to form up to personally stand guard over some dweeb who wants to do special-interest krabbing in a too-blingy ship when it’s safer and less inconvenient for everyone else if he just rats in his super, which can actually survive long enough that everyone else can _respond_ to an attack on him instead of having to tank our own income to babysit. If you are dropping on grid with …well anything…you are an idiot. That applies equally in high sec. The trace is only warpable by combat scanner. So IF someone knows to look for them and HOW to look for them. Making it easy by dropping on grid with a Forti is pretty stupid, you show on overview. Don’t be on overview. duh. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/224 "2019-08-03T15:04:22Z")
> [@Onictus](#): > > If you are dropping on grid with …well anything…you are an idiot. > > That applies equally in high sec. The trace is only warpable by combat scanner. So IF someone knows to look for them and HOW to look for them. Making it easy by dropping on grid with a Forti is pretty stupid, you show on overview. > > Don’t be on overview. duh. Which doesn’t actually change any of the calculus on, “Highsec even with a suspect timer is still a lot safer, especially without local in null.” ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/225 "2019-08-03T15:44:41Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > Which doesn’t actually change any of the calculus on, “Highsec even with a suspect timer is still a lot safer, especially without local in null.” Then you have a strange definition of risk. It’s much easier to find a system without anybody in null, to run your sites and not be bothered, than in HS. It’s also much easier to defend your ship in NS than in HS It’s also much easier to prevent people from coming (bubbles) in NS than in HS. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/226 "2019-08-03T15:52:25Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > It’s much easier to find a system without anybody in null, to run your sites and not be bothered, than in HS. The only thing you can find in null at the moment is a system with an _unknown_ number of persons in it. > It’s also much easier to defend your ship in NS than in HS The only way you’re going to “Defend” a subcap in null is if you have a gang just sitting there on the conduit waiting, or at least ready to go when FC says undock NOW. Depending on your true intention, this is either fine, or idiotic. If your intention is to bait out a fight, it’s fine. If your intention is to krab efficiently, it’s idiotic and you should go super rat because it is dramatically safer without requiring other people to stop what they’re doing and be ready to save you literally _right now_. > It’s also much easier to prevent people from coming (bubbles) in NS than in HS. “Oh, they put some bubbles here, that’s cute,” said the cloaky loki, as he warped away, immune. Cynos/covert cynos also exist. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/227 "2019-08-03T16:15:30Z")
It seems you misread what I wrote. I did not claim it was impossible to kill someone doing abyssal in NS. I claimed it is more difficult in NS than in HS. > [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > The only thing you can find in null at the moment is a system with an _unknown_ number of persons in it. Is the map not working anymore ? Last time I checked it did tell you the number of accounts in the systems, and number of jump, in the last hour (cached 1h) And BTW I know people who do abyssal runs in WH and they are not bothered. Yet they have less defense than in NS and they don’t have the number of accounts in local. And no data on the map. > [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > The only way you’re going to “Defend” a subcap in null is if you have a gang just sitting there on the conduit waiting, or at least ready to go when FC says undock NOW. Or you have a standing fleet ready to bother the enemies long enough for you to finish your abyss and change ship. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/228 "2019-08-03T16:30:15Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Is the map not working anymore ? > Last time I checked it did tell you the number of accounts in the systems, and number of jump, in the last hour (cached 1h) You don’t think that “cached 1h” is kind of a significant detail? And do I poll every blue who’s also in system to subtract them from the total? > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > And BTW I know people who do abyssal runs in WH and they are not bothered. Yet they have less defense than in NS and they don’t have the number of accounts in local. They also have trivial population density and the ability to crit holes. Wspace is inconvenient, but _very_ securable. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Or you have a standing fleet ready to bother the enemies long enough for you to finish your abyss and change ship. Ready to bother _what_ enemies? How are they going to bother them? Are they even _there_, or is our conduit runner just wasting everyone else’s time (and ability to generate their own ISK, because that’s usually what standing fleets are - other ratters. They’re not some designated defense patrol) by requiring an entire fleet to babysit him? And, problematically, if he’s hoping for a standing fleet response, he can’t just ■■■■ off to some remote system for the safety of obscurity - he’s going to have to be where people live, which is _also_ where people _hunt_. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/229 "2019-08-03T16:39:04Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > You don’t think that “cached 1h” is kind of a significant detail? > And do I poll every blue who’s also in system to subtract them from the total? That part was refering to “finding a system without anybody”. If you want nobody in the system, then there should not be blue either. > [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > They also have trivial population density and the ability to crit holes. Wspace is inconvenient, but _very_ securable. Exactly like some NS regions. > [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > Ready to bother _what_ enemies? How are they going to bother them? Are they even _there_ well if there are no enemies then there is no risk, we agree on that ? I remind you : > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > It seems you misread what I wrote. > I did not claim it was impossible to kill someone doing abyssal in NS. > I claimed it is more difficult in NS than in HS. If your claim is that “you can be killed in NS when exiting abyssal space” well thank you but you are off topic. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/230 "2019-08-03T16:44:24Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > well if there are no enemies then there is no risk, we agree on that ? > I remind you : There aren’t “no” enemies. There are an _unknown_ number of enemies. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > That part was refering to “finding a system without anybody”. If you want nobody in the system, then there should not be blue either. > > ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/5/1/518bb4a8c35db75d8bbb1e2ddc0de5a465b14366.jpeg) Haulie\_Berry: And what good is 1 hour cached data for telling me if someone is around now? It could be empty now, but occupied then, it could be empty then, and occupied now. Furthermore, this kills any fantasy you may have about a “standing fleet” coming to your rescue because, A:Now that you’ve gone to somewhere with “no” people, even (and really, especially) blues, there’s no hope of intel at all. and B: You’ve likely just added a ton of travel time to their response. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/231 "2019-08-03T16:54:08Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > And what good is 1 hour cached data for telling me if someone is around now? It could be empty now, but occupied then, it could be empty then, and occupied now. because you think people will do 10 jumps to a random system with 0 jumps/person in local/rats killed in the last hours ? > [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > Furthermore, this kills any fantasy you may have about a “standing fleet” coming to your rescue because, > > A:Now that you’ve gone to somewhere with “no” people, even (and really, especially) blues, there’s no hope of intel at all. > and > B: You’ve likely just added a ton of travel time to their response. Of course. That would be stupid to ask for a standing fleet when you are in a complete empty system. Just as quiet as in a WH… > [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > There aren’t “no” enemies. There are an _unknown_ number of enemies. Because eyes on gates and dscan is a thing of the past ? Here it’s the case where you have a standing fleet. Anyhow, you are off topic when claiming you can die in NS. The amount of energy someone needs to put in to catch you in NS will always be higher than what he needs to catch you in HS. And YES you can bait and catch gankers in NS. Good luck with that in HS, where they are protected by concord. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/232 "2019-08-03T16:56:53Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Anyhow, you are off topic when claiming you can die in NS. And if you want to mischaracterize my position that way, you’re a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 4:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/233 "2019-08-03T16:57:38Z")
so far you yet have to give another argument than this one. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/234 "2019-08-03T16:58:09Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > so far you yet have to give another argument than this one. Still lying. > Because eyes on gates and dscan is a thing of the past ? > Here it’s the case where you have a standing fleet. I don’t think you have any real grasp of the current cloaky meta. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/235 "2019-08-03T16:58:51Z")
still no argument. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/236 "2019-08-03T19:50:29Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > TBH, no way in hell is HS more dangerous, regardless of flag, especially with the _current_ NS environment. > > You can’t actually open the things within 1000km of a citadel, so while you can be on grid with your HQ, they’ll be waving at you out the windows when the cloaky loki gang or 20 bombers decloaks, blaps you, and pisses off. My feelings of NS aside this is actually my feelings. There is imho no need to increase the difficulty in HS Abyssal ops. But the question was really to gauge public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/237 "2019-08-03T19:51:41Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Or you have a standing fleet ready to bother the enemies long enough for you to finish your abyss and change ship. The point people inc you told me was impossible in HS ---
**Author:** ![Janus\_Gregorian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/janus_gregorian/32/144827_2.png) [@Janus\_Gregorian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Janus_Gregorian)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/238 "2019-08-03T23:24:45Z")
You have to understand: Anderson isn’t interested in a proper discussion or comparable risk/reward. He just wants to protect his T5 income and will use any and all silly logic to accomplish that, or at the very least change the subject. It doesn’t matter how risk/reward is between HS or null T4/5, that’s just the smoke and mirrors part. What matters is how HS T4/5 compare to other HS options. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 11:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/239 "2019-08-03T23:28:09Z")
> [@Janus\_Gregorian](#): > > What matters is how HS T4/5 compare to other HS options. How does that influence whether they should be flagged or not? ---
**Author:** ![Janus\_Gregorian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/janus_gregorian/32/144827_2.png) [@Janus\_Gregorian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Janus_Gregorian)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2019, 11:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057/240 "2019-08-03T23:35:12Z")
It doesn’t, not necessarily anyway. What matters is that right now the risk/reward for these things is out of line compared to other high sec option. Whether they solve that through increasing risk or lowering reward (which is difficult to do as that’s affected by the demand for the drops) I don’t necessarily care about. But given that Abyssal sites are instancing, something EVE never had or should have. I’m inclined to solve this issue by shoving the sandbox up people’s noses, ie suspect. But I’d be happy with any other reasonable solution. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057.md?page=11) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/let-s-talk-about-suspect-flags-for-t4-5/177057.md?page=13)