# Let's Have Less Waffle And More Reality....Nerfed Procurers **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 8, 2021, 5:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847 "2021-12-08T17:34:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/141 "2021-12-10T16:18:32Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Nice rage! Does that stick up your ass stop you from picking up on the humorous use of one of the most well known Star Wars quotes? You two need to hit your nearest dispensary for some CBD tea. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/142 "2021-12-10T16:24:43Z")
Sorry, I never saw those movies—I’m just not that into religious propaganda. The cold, hard logic of the Star Trek universe is much more appealing to my sensibilities. Got anything from that? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 4:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/143 "2021-12-10T16:48:12Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > I never saw those movies You have my condolences. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 4:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/144 "2021-12-10T16:54:52Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > The cold, hard logic of the Star Trek universe Minus the Next Gen movies, Disco and Picard, I hope And Abramsverse 2 and 3 ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 4:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/145 "2021-12-10T16:59:26Z")
I like all of it, movies too, though I haven’t seen the new shows yet. In fairness I do like the older stuff more. Captain Janeway is on my waifu body pillow. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/146 "2021-12-10T17:01:13Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > I haven’t seen the new shows yet. Well if you can stand movie version of Picard’s character you might actually like the series, as completely non sensical as it is. Disco is just balls on every level. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/147 "2021-12-10T17:08:01Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > The ~150-200 ganker figure I’ve been quoting for a long time now is a mathematically-valid estimate. I would not push this argument too far. 1) extrapolatory math is always iffy (2) Once convinced that Gankers are a very very small part of the population CCP might decide that the lost miners and freighters are more worthy and make more radical alterations to the game against ganking in general. IF CCP has 200 ‘I am leaving the game because Hisec is not even close to safe’ exit surveys in a given month why in hells name would they allow your tiny population of ganking game players to cost them such a large number of customers over time? /me dons flame retardant clothing for expected responses. m ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/148 "2021-12-10T17:08:09Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > If you mark only pilots/corps/alliances that _primarily_ or _significantly_ engage in PvP (it’s a main activity) then your numbers will be quite a bit more refined. Those stats I referred to are from just _two_ ganker groups where members ( some of whom were the very people I passed ) had been involved in recorded gank activity in the past month. So I hadn’t even added all of the possible groups or individuals and I get almost 10% ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/149 "2021-12-10T17:15:25Z")
> [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > I would not push this argument too far. 1) extrapolatory math is always iffy It’s better than opinions or conjecture. I’ll take a rough estimate rooted in actual data than an estimate rooted in someone’s feelings any day of the week. > [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > (2) Once convinced that Gankers are a very very small part of the population CCP might decide that the lost miners and freighters are more worthy and make more radical alterations to the game against ganking in general. **Good.** That is _exactly_ what we want. If a game mechanic (or in fact a game’s whole premise) can’t survive on its own merit, then it shouldn’t exist. Let them concede and pacify EVE by turning it into another generic PvE MMO. To us, that’s better than watching as pieces of the game’s core integrity get chipped off little by little over the course of many years. Quite frankly, I’m very interested in seeing what would happen to the game if it goes full-grind PvE-mode. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/150 "2021-12-10T17:19:18Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > Those stats I referred to are from just _two_ ganker groups where members ( some of whom were the very people I passed ) had been involved in recorded gank activity in the past month. So I hadn’t even added all of the possible groups or individuals and I get almost 10% So do you really not realize that you’re comparing (in your own words) the ratio of people who have had ganking activity within the past month to the point-in-time population in a system, instead of, say, to the total amount of unique characters that have visited that system over the course of that month? What do you think is that 10% measuring, exactly? You said you took statistics in college, and frankly I’m not convinced. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/151 "2021-12-10T17:19:20Z")
> [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > I would not push this argument too far. 1) extrapolatory math is always iffy (2) Once convinced that Gankers are a very very small part of the population CCP might decide that the lost miners and freighters are more worthy and make more radical alterations to the game against ganking in general. Destiny’s argument is on par with arguing that because only 2 bank robberies occurred in the country in the past month, therefore there are only 2 bank robbers. The fact that there may actually be 1000 bank robbers and most are planning, enjoying the proceeds of the last action, having a day off, or whatever, is just completely overlooked. That is why ‘active gankers’ is such a misleading term. Anyway…I’m just off to be an ‘active pizza eater’. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/152 "2021-12-10T17:26:26Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > So do you really not realize that you’re comparing (in your own words) the ratio of people who have had ganking activity within the past month to the point-in-time population in a system, instead of, say, to the total amount of unique characters that have visited that system over the course of that month? What do you think is that 10% measuring, exactly? What’s not to understand ?? You claim the number of gankers in Eve is ‘tiny’. If I can pass through 6 systems…287 people…and 9.5% of those in Local are gankers, what’s not to understand that the ‘tiny’ estimate is way off ? What is all this ‘over the past month’ nonsense ? You keep trying to massage the stats. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/153 "2021-12-10T17:29:54Z")
I bet if that happened theyd bring back CQ, work on WiS and give us all funky fruit hats. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/154 "2021-12-10T17:31:02Z")
Because you’re not normalizing your data. You’re looking at the ratio of gankers to non-gankers in a specific system at a specific point in time, and not accounting for all of the time that the ratio is completely different. If four gankers pass through a system of 40 people for 5 minutes in a day, you’re concluding that the ganker ratio is 10%. Even a third-grader would be able to explain to you why that’s extremely flawed reasoning. Normally I’d attribute something like this to trolling, but that whole thing about not attributing to malice what can be attributed to plain stupidity is holding me back in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/155 "2021-12-10T17:31:52Z")
Is 10% not 9 times less than 90% of something? I must be missing something. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/156 "2021-12-10T17:52:30Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Because you’re not normalizing your data. You’re looking at the ratio of gankers to non-gankers in a specific system at a specific point in time, and not accounting for all of the time that the ratio is completely different. If four gankers pass through a system of 40 people for 5 minutes in a day, you’re concluding that the ganker ratio is 10%. Even a third-grader would be able to explain to you why that’s extremely flawed reasoning. If someone says only 1 car in 100 is red…and I drive for an hour and pass 1000 cars and 100 of them are red, no amount of waffle about ‘normalizing’ or claiming that I live next to the Red Car Paint Factory, or all the red car owners from miles away showed up, or whatever, explains that discrepancy. And I did say that the data I gave was ‘typical’…in other words it was not just some fluke on one day. Coming from someone who’s argument essentially boils down to ’ there can only be 2 bank robbers because only 2 bank robberies occurred in the past month '…somehow I don’t think I’m the one who needs to redo college level stats. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/157 "2021-12-10T17:57:10Z")
> [@Cilla\_Cybin](#): > > If someone says only 1 car in 100 is red…and I drive for an hour and pass 1000 cars and 100 of them are red, no amount of waffle about ‘normalizing’ or claiming that I live next to the Red Car Paint Factory, or all the red car owners from miles away showed up, or whatever, explains that discrepancy. Actually, that’s called the concept of statistical variance, and we can calculate the odds of that occurring via a normal distribution standard deviation calculation. Anyway, it’s obvious that you’re either trolling or _amazingly_ obtuse (I’m hoping it’s the former), so there’s no point in keeping this going. Anyone reading this exchange can come to their own conclusion about who’s making more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/158 "2021-12-10T18:08:33Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Actually, that’s called the concept of statistical variance, and we can calculate the odds of that occurring via a normal distribution standard deviation calculation. Oh gawd…you’ve left out the bit where you do a quantum discombobulation in Hilbert space and measure the level of entanglement using a ‘widget thingy’ and then decide whether the cat is alive or dead. I mean that beats direct observation ( a concept you seem to be struggling with ) any day ! You know, like if someone says it is raining outside and I go out and see the sun is shining. Good old direct observation ---
**Author:** ![Duella\_Cre\_Vil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/duella_cre_vil/32/297348_2.png) [@Duella\_Cre\_Vil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Duella_Cre_Vil)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/159 "2021-12-10T18:10:09Z")
One thing with schrodingers cat is that noone has asked the fking cat how it feels. ---
**Author:** ![Cilla\_Cybin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cilla_cybin/32/292206_2.png) [@Cilla\_Cybin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cilla_Cybin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 6:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847/160 "2021-12-10T18:16:33Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Is 10% not 9 times less than 90% of something? It is…but you wouldn’t complain about a 10% pay rise. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/lets-have-less-waffle-and-more-reality-nerfed-procurers/340847.md?page=9)