# Local Comms Blackout - Discussion Thread - Part Deux! **URL:** \ **Category:** Announcements\ **Tags:** feedback, official\ **Created:** [July 18, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410 "2019-07-18T19:57:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 163
**Author:** ![Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/borbarad_naglfar/32/131048_2.png) [@Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Borbarad_Naglfar)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3318 "2019-09-12T14:50:14Z")
Can confirm i don’t even know what you mean with this gibberish. What has been increased is the risk and the need to farm plex for an additional cyno alt. And spawnrates for anoms have benn nerved along with the NSA nerv. Did you fall on your head and are confusing up with down? ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Marconi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_marconi/32/150029_2.png) [@Mark\_Marconi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Marconi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3319 "2019-09-12T14:55:10Z")
Yes we know you don’t understand. Keep trying champ, you will get there. ---
**Author:** ![Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/borbarad_naglfar/32/131048_2.png) [@Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Borbarad_Naglfar)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3320 "2019-09-12T15:07:06Z")
I see - you WANT me to have to spend more time ratting so you can call me a carebear and don’t have to deal with an actual pvp ship so you can feel eliete about your pityful skill 😃 But people move under umbrellas exactly so they can avoid grinding and do what PVE is needed in relative safety. You’re not going to change that by forcing your playstyle down their throat, instead they just leave as the numbers are clearly showing. If you get upset about that EVE is simply the wrong game for you because the number of people like you won’t be able to keep the servers running on their own. Thats how business works. If CCP doesn’t turn around and fix their mess pretty soon they’ll be bankrupt in two years. ---
**Author:** ![Elwha\_Lynx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elwha_lynx/32/246048_2.png) [@Elwha\_Lynx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elwha_Lynx)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3321 "2019-09-12T15:19:51Z")
> [@Mark\_Marconi](#): > > And again more than 16,000 accounts banned in the last 2 months most of which would have been on 24/7 Where’s the data or quote by CCP for that? Seen various suggestions it’s between 8K and 16K but haven’t seen much to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Marconi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_marconi/32/150029_2.png) [@Mark\_Marconi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Marconi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3322 "2019-09-12T15:20:29Z")
Look at the security reports released every month. ---
**Author:** ![Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/borbarad_naglfar/32/131048_2.png) [@Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Borbarad_Naglfar)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3323 "2019-09-12T15:26:55Z")
Doesn’t even matter since they’re just being replaced. CCP has nowhere near enough manpower to check reports fast enough and act on it while it takes a few klicks to create a new account. Highsec is full of bots. What isn’t getting replaced are the real players leaving in droves over this nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3324 "2019-09-12T15:52:10Z")
He’s achieving his total number by adding together all of the numbers from the [July](https://www.eveonline.com/article/pwp24p/monthly-security-report-july-2019) and [August](https://www.eveonline.com/article/pxf0x3/monthly-security-report-august-2019) Monthly Security Reports (ie: the first two ever). There’s a few problems with his numbers, though, which he categorically refuses to acknowledge. First, in order to get to that 16,000 figure, he has to add in the numbers for first half of the year, which obviously enough, aren’t ‘in the last two months’: Here’s the actual numbers: > [@](#): > > **Here are the final numbers in terms of account action from the first half of 2019:** > > - 4385 account bans for account hacking. > - 12446 account bans for botting related activities. > - 5101 account bans for RMT related activities. > > We’ve seen a substantial amount of action on all three fronts this year – here are the numbers for July too, given that this report focuses specifically on the previous month: > > - 301 account bans for account hacking. > - 777 account bans for botting related activities. > - 1023 account bans for RMT related activities. Emphasis added. > [@](#): > > Firstly the raw numbers for the month of August: > > - 994 account bans for account hacking. > - 4,369 account bans for botting related activities. > - 2,454 account bans for RMT related activities. Now, the ‘account bans for account hacking’ is an interesting thing. CCP bans those accounts to _protect_ the actual owner. Those get unbanned as soon as CCP’s in touch with them and knows it’s the legit owner at the keys, setting up a new PW and/or 2FA. So remove those. That leaves us with: July: 777 bots August: 4,369 bots Which, obviously, is far short of 16,000. It’s only 5,146, or less than 1/3 the number he’s quoting. To get where he thinks he’s going, you’d have to add August to the first half of the year (Jan-June), and completely ignore July. (After all, if you include July, you end up with 17,593 _for the year_.) We’re 8 months in, so that should be about 2k/month, which means August was heavy, but they were slacking off in July. Note: that’s not actually indicative of CCP not doing their jobs, it’s more indicative of Team Security, like everyone _else_ in Iceland, going on vacation during July. Point is, in order to get his number (16,000), you’d have to demonstrate an amazing lack of understanding of just what numbers you’re actually looking at. More significantly, though, we should probably combine the ‘bot’ and RMT numbers for those two months, if we’re looking at the decline in PCU. Combining them gives us a total of 8,623 accounts banned (half of his ‘just bots’ number, so we can be sure that’s not what he’s looking at). This is what I like to call the ‘screw you guys, I’m glad you’re gone’ category. 8,623 is more than enough to account for the drop in concurrent users. Only problem there is: we know bots don’t just get banned and give up. So how many of those 8600, or even just the 5100 ‘botting’ bans were repeat offenders using VPNs and skill injectors to churn through accounts? We have no way of knowing. But even if we take the entire PCU drop of 6,490 during the Blackout to be bots—which is a _best case_ scenario, and one that we all know is not what’s happening—that still means fully **20%** of EVE Online’s players are bots. Which, again, we know is ridiculous. If the ‘best case’ scenario, the one that represents the smallest possible loss of actual players, says that 1 in 5 of your players can’t pass a Turing test, ‘stagnation’ is not your problem. So what we’re left with is the far more reasonable assumption that we’re seeing repeat offenders get banned, make new accounts, and get banned again. In fact, even in the ‘best case’ scenario, we’re seeing them all get banned twice. Odds are a lot better that we saw them get banned once in July, and then those same bots (or a significant chunk) get banned 5 or 6 (5.622906823, on average) times each again during August. And they’ll probably all get banned again a half dozen times in September, because with endless simultaneous alphas via VPN, and completely ‘legal’ SP-farming enabling them to instantly-inject up into ratting ships, there’s absolutely no reason for these bot farms—tied to RMT, and making their real-world income off of botting—to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Elwha\_Lynx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elwha_lynx/32/246048_2.png) [@Elwha\_Lynx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elwha_Lynx)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3325 "2019-09-12T15:58:12Z")
> [@Borbarad\_Naglfar](#): > > Doesn’t even matter since they’re just being replaced. Speculation. What’s a fact is according to CCP, and those security reports, something like 20,000 bot characters have been removed this year, including entire large corporations of bots. This also why CCP might not be too worried and more than willing to see such profound drops in characters on online–rather than being alarmed (or is it crocodile tears) by those same online numbers. CCP would rather have active players. I would as well. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3326 "2019-09-12T16:04:12Z")
> [@Elwha\_Lynx](#): > > Speculation. But not a foolish one. In fact, knowing just what’s acknowledged industry-wide about RMT/bot-farming, it’s _more_ likely that any given bot is just replaced by a new account from the same user cluster, than that once banned, a botter is just magically gone. > [@Elwha\_Lynx](#): > > something like 20,000 bot characters > [@Arrendis](#): > > 17,593 It’s right there above where you were writing. ---
**Author:** ![Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/borbarad_naglfar/32/131048_2.png) [@Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Borbarad_Naglfar)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3327 "2019-09-12T16:06:14Z")
And again i see a lot of people no longer logging in with whom i was chatting on comms and going on fleets all day. Besides, no its not speculation. Go to Highsec, takes no 5 minutes to find a botter. Nothing prevents them from making as many accounts as they want so why would they stop because some get banned? With CCP actively doing everything to make EVE more grindy and thus pushing people towards RMT theres more motivation to keep botting than ever. ---
**Author:** ![Elwha\_Lynx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elwha_lynx/32/246048_2.png) [@Elwha\_Lynx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elwha_Lynx)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3328 "2019-09-12T16:12:08Z")
> [@Borbarad\_Naglfar](#): > > And again i see a lot of people no longer logging in with whom i was chatting on comms and going on fleets all day. I can’t speculate on High Sec, I seldom go there, nor have lived there more than a month many years ago. I seen mentioned quite a few times that there seems to be a migration there and know of one corps that lives near us that lost some members who went to HS. As for comms, our null group has expanded and more active because of the blackout–its forced us to be on voice for more timely intel and quicker forming response fleets for defense or just pvp opportunities–overall a big plus. I also doubt the same tools being used to confirm reports of bots that have kicked out nearly 20K of them, hasn’t also been embedded by CCP into their own bot reporting to find new ones as they crop up. I also doubt most null alliances have been able to replace the robust intel networks most bots seemed to depend on–or distribute new bot algorithms that don’t depend on that same network. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3329 "2019-09-12T16:19:21Z")
Another thing to keep in mind when you’re looking at the numbers, btw? The Monthly Security Reports are new… but only because they’re monthly. We’ve been getting Quarterly Security Reports. Here’s the numbers for the first half of Q1: > [@](#): > > Here are the current numbers just as we’re passing the half way point of this quarter: > > - 1350 account bans for account hacking. > - 4102 account bans for botting related activities. > - 1205 account bans for RMT related activities. So, if you put that in perspective, that’s 4100 bots removed in the first month and a half of 2019. Roughly the same number as the August dropoff. So if this is all bots, there should be a similar plummet of 5k (since the end of July) during Jan 1-Feb 14. Jan 6 peak: 37,965 Feb 10 peak: 36,589 So that doesn’t look like it lines up. > [@Elwha\_Lynx](#): > > I also doubt the same tools being used to confirm reports of bots that have kicked out nearly 20K of them, hasn’t also been embedded by CCP into their own bot reporting to find new ones as they crop up. If CCP’s tools were as good as you imagine they are, A)they wouldn’t need people to report bots, B)they would literally be running twice as much processing power _parsing_ the complete logs of all user activity in EVE Online as they use _running_ EVE Online[1], and C)they would be the most amazing security team in all of online gaming. A is demonstrably not the case. B is patently ridiculous. C is unlikely, but conceivable. * * * 1 Because, obviously enough, it takes a lot more effort and energy to find and analyze patterns in data, filtering out false positives and artifacts of the game’s code, than it does to simply _generate_ that data. ---
**Author:** ![Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/borbarad_naglfar/32/131048_2.png) [@Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Borbarad_Naglfar)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3330 "2019-09-12T16:19:28Z")
Bots are being baned by the thousands yet highsec is still full of bots - obviously they are being replaced thers litterally no question about that. Therefore the shrinking login numbers have (close to) nothing to do with the removal of already replaced bots. It’s just a number CCP can show around but they are not tackling the root of the problem at all. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Marconi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_marconi/32/150029_2.png) [@Mark\_Marconi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Marconi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3331 "2019-09-12T16:19:43Z")
I must admit I didn’t bother to check it properly but then you just launched into wild speculation. So 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Edit: at the end of the day so long as CCP don’t cave into the loudest voices and hold the course, the game wins. So I am happy to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Marconi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_marconi/32/150029_2.png) [@Mark\_Marconi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Marconi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3332 "2019-09-12T16:23:11Z")
Why would bots be in hi-sec? you make more in Null in 5 minutes than you do in hi-sec in an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Elwha\_Lynx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elwha_lynx/32/246048_2.png) [@Elwha\_Lynx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elwha_Lynx)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3333 "2019-09-12T16:25:25Z")
> [@Borbarad\_Naglfar](#): > > Bots are being baned by the thousands yet highsec is still full of bots - Evidence? CCP recently highlighted a bot filled null corps they tossed out–you think a HS example is coming? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3334 "2019-09-12T16:26:15Z")
> [@Elwha\_Lynx](#): > > Evidence? CCP recently highlighted a bot filled null corps they tossed out–you think a HS example is coming? Bots in HS tend to stay in NPC corps. There’s no reason for them not to. ---
**Author:** ![Elwha\_Lynx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elwha_lynx/32/246048_2.png) [@Elwha\_Lynx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elwha_Lynx)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3335 "2019-09-12T16:28:47Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Bots in HS tend to stay in NPC corps. There’s no reason for them not to. Again, where is the evidence? Though if you are right–it makes me sad all those code evemails are arriving to deaf ears 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3336 "2019-09-12T16:31:13Z")
> [@Elwha\_Lynx](#): > > Again, where is the evidence? Well, I could spend a few hours digging through logs of discussions with Darius JOHNSON (aka ex-CCP Sreegs, of Team Security), or I could ask you, instead, to offer up a single compelling reason why botters would put in the extra effort of making and joining a player-run corp that gives CCP a narrower pool of suspects to focus on (thus, calling attention to their own alts), in Highsec, where they don’t need such a thing at all. Edit: I’m gonna opt for #2, because #1 involves reinstalling Slack to get at the old TMC/INN Bullpen, and ugh, I hate Slack. ---
**Author:** ![Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/borbarad_naglfar/32/131048_2.png) [@Borbarad\_Naglfar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Borbarad_Naglfar)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410/3337 "2019-09-12T16:32:19Z")
Go to highsec and see your evidence. Also if bans were effective at keeping them away todays login number would be something like -2000 according to CCP reporting 17k bans this year already. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410.md?page=162) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/local-comms-blackout-discussion-thread-part-deux/176410.md?page=164)