# Make Empire PvP Meta Sub-Cap **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [February 18, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599 "2020-02-18T17:22:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/1 "2020-02-18T17:22:16Z")
The title says it all. This would allow an easier, low cost, entry into PvP for players wanting to try it out as well as making a sub-cap defense of structures more than just a dice roll. This would give small corps the ability to be competitive in low, without the resulting hot drop from “alt in MegaCorp”. All caps except freighters need **Banned in Empire Space = True** ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/f/2/f2a3923ce3e360b57ae80b258df5bfce5f604945.png) ---
**Author:** ![Nepsy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nepsy/32/302840_2.png) [@Nepsy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nepsy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/2 "2020-02-18T17:38:04Z")
Your intent isn’t very clear. However, if you’re implying that there should be cheap and easy to hop into battleships for “smaller groups” then that’s a -1 from me. Larger groups would be able to benefit far more, and we don’t really need more structure spam from smaller groups who can’t even protect their assets currently ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Kalus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lord_kalus/32/512583_2.png) [@Lord\_Kalus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lord_Kalus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/3 "2020-02-18T17:52:53Z")
As much as I would love to make battleships great again they simply don’t hold up against a larger force in smaller and cheaper ships. Three or four dudes in 20 mil cruisers can sink a 150-200 mil battleship fairly easily. Battleships are slow to move, slow to lock, and often unable to avoid fights being brought to them. They seem designed for stand up brawling yet are unable to meet the muster against heavier odds. It might be somewhat different in large scale fleet engagements but there is nothing stopping someone from bringing twice as many cruisers or assault frigates and practically winning the isk war by default. Don’t get me wrong. I **love** to fly battleships, they’re great fun. But I generally will only pvp in cruisers and below. And I am unsure what potential changes could be made to correct this and build a new meta. ---
**Author:** ![Kace\_Robins](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kace_robins/32/484596_2.png) [@Kace\_Robins](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kace_Robins)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/4 "2020-02-18T17:59:02Z")
I concur. Battleships are lovely, but ■■■■. Can we trust CCP to make battleships great again? No, we can’t. Also agree with @Nepsy: there are way too many structures cluttering our space already. It’s space shantytown in all major systems as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/5 "2020-02-18T18:03:28Z")
> [@Nepsy](#): > > and we don’t really need more structure spam from smaller groups who can’t even protect their assets currently /facepalm The point it to level the field and give them the ability to defend their structures. Also you do realize this suggestion only effects low sec? High sec structure spam is off topic. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/6 "2020-02-18T18:05:05Z")
> [@Kace\_Robins](#): > > Can we trust CCP to make battleships great again? No, we can’t. It’s not about ship traits or attributes. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/7 "2020-02-18T18:05:20Z")
🔴 > [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > The point it to level the field and give them the ability to defend their structures. How? If my 5 man corp can get the BS, why shouldn’t Siege Green not be able to? ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/8 "2020-02-18T18:07:13Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > How? If my 5 man corp can get the BS, why shouldn’t Siege Green not be able to? Where does it say someone else cannot get the BS? ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/9 "2020-02-18T18:07:57Z")
🔴 > [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > Where does it say someone else cannot get the BS? No where. That is why I am asking how it is supposed to level the playing field. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/10 "2020-02-18T18:10:21Z")
> [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > All caps except freighters need **Banned in Empire Space = True** Just read the title maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/11 "2020-02-18T18:12:01Z")
🔴 Not at all. Capitals are hardly an issue that prevents smaller groups from becoming competitive. Bigger groups can outform smaller groups and destroy their “new meta sub caps” with a swarm of frigates. Again: How is your BS supposed to level the playing field? ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/12 "2020-02-18T18:13:02Z")
That’s always the case, numbers win, what does that have to do with the topic? ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/13 "2020-02-18T18:15:02Z")
🔴 This: > [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > as well as making a sub-cap defense of structures more than just a dice roll. Or: > [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > The point it to level the field and give them the ability to defend their structures. You want these things to be something that gives smaller groups a better fighting chance. How do you supposed this would be achieved? Battleships are already cheap and pack a mighty punch. Look at the Praxis, for instance. How or what would your thing do differently than that ship or a cheap Typhoon or Armageddon? ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/14 "2020-02-18T18:18:40Z")
What can I say, "Wooosshh?? 🤣 Also, bad enough they added red dot to the game, you have to make us look at it here too? ---
**Author:** ![Nepsy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nepsy/32/302840_2.png) [@Nepsy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nepsy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/15 "2020-02-18T18:18:59Z")
Basically, the thread is just another ban capitals from lowsec thread? I’m not exactly against it, but wouldn’t this just make it even harder for small groups to own capitals? TBH I’d be in favour of this if battleships also got a sig resolution buff + cargo space buff. Why would a tiny frigate running windows XP have a better sig resolution than a battleship running windows 35. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/16 "2020-02-18T18:19:26Z")
🔴 > [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > Also, bad enough they added red dot to the game, you have to make us look at it here too? Oh, hell yes. 😇 ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/17 "2020-02-18T18:21:17Z")
> [@Nepsy](#): > > I’m not exactly against it, but wouldn’t this just make it even harder for small groups to own capitals? If they are big enough to own capitals, null awaits. I hate to use the word, because of the foul wow context, but it is a corp progression of sorts, high-\>low-\>null ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Kalus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lord_kalus/32/512583_2.png) [@Lord\_Kalus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lord_Kalus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/18 "2020-02-18T18:21:37Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > 🔴 > > ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/c/b/cbc1f7b1d45a2472e43c0be753156f9688109175.jpeg) Salt\_Foambreaker: > > > Also, bad enough they added red dot to the game, you have to make us look at it here too? > > Oh, hell yes. 😇 Elite PVP at it’s finest right here boys. ---
**Author:** ![Kace\_Robins](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kace_robins/32/484596_2.png) [@Kace\_Robins](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kace_Robins)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/19 "2020-02-18T18:28:49Z")
Mmm. Ok, if STRICTLY low-sec, I’m game: hot dropping capitals in low feels cheap. And it’s bad for FW pilots, too. However, I anticipate people are going to bitch and moan about this. Probably never going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599/20 "2020-02-18T20:27:30Z")
> [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > Also you do realize this suggestion only effects low sec? High sec structure spam is off topic. I suspect that a lot of folks see “Empire Space” and think “hisec”. If you had just said “ban capital ships except freighters from losec” I think more people would understand what you’re getting at. Back to the topic at hand, I agree that perpetual fear of capital hotdrops does definitely stifle losec; not just structure warfare, but gang warfare in general. But I think the solution for your issue isn’t to ban capital ships from losec, it’s to ban standard cynos from losec. This will have the benefit of eliminating hotdrops while still leaving slower capital escalations as an option, and also leaving losec as a part of the sandbox where smaller groups can use capitals without having to deal with nullsec. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/make-empire-pvp-meta-sub-cap/220599.md?page=2)