# Making Low-Sec Gate-Camping A Concord-able Offence **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [July 9, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694 "2019-07-09T22:50:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Loki\_Orkund](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loki_orkund/32/146159_2.png) [@Loki\_Orkund](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loki_Orkund)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/141 "2019-07-13T01:19:40Z")
K, gatecamper. We know you’re desperate to pad your killsheet. When you come up with an actual counterargument, let us know. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 1:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/142 "2019-07-13T01:21:23Z")
I’m not really a PvP er so wrong, yet again it seems. > I’ve done my fair share of gatecamping We know you’re desperate to pad your killsheet…_sincker_ > [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > When you come up with an actual counterargument, let me know. When you come up with the data to back-up your BS claims, let us know, until then you are just whiny noise… ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 1:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/143 "2019-07-13T01:56:54Z")
I’m listening, I just don’t obey! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lady\_Zee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lady_zee/32/262119_2.png) [@Lady\_Zee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lady_Zee)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 2:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/144 "2019-07-13T02:10:46Z")
NS have no local, its now different ggwp ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 10:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/145 "2019-07-13T10:42:10Z")
> [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > > My point was that a CONCORD response in losec as proposed by the OP would be A) greatly delayed from the offending act and B) able to be evaded, which means it would be totally different than how CONCORD behaves in hisec. > > He was talking about 20 seconds. I’m talking about minutes. > > What you haven’t explained is why it would make the game worse (instead of quite a lot better as is obviously the case). This is a logical fallacy. You and the OP are arguing a premise (i.e. that reducing/eliminating losec gate camping would make the game better) and A) assuming that your premise is correct as the starting point and B) not providing any evidence to back up your premise when asked for it. That which can be stated without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. But to your point, it would most definitely make the game worse for losec PvPers by adding an artificial time limit on how long they have to destroy something. You seem to keep disregarding the fact that making the game worse for them doesn’t necessarily justify making it “better” for anyone else. > [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > > This entire thread is about improving gameplay for players like the OP, and I’m guessing you. > > You guess wrong. I’ve done my fair share of gatecamping and have killed 5x more people through it than died to it. I’m nerfing myself and don’t give a crap because it’s not real PvP. > > … > > > It would definitely not improve gameplay for losec gatecampers. > > Diddums. Maybe they’ll go do real PvP instead. Kudos to you for being willing to nerf your own playstyle, but being gracious does not grant you the authority to define what “real” PvP is. Unless someone from CCP wants to chime in and correct me, “real” PvP is any time a player undocked in a ship takes action on another player-owned ship or structure that results in its theft, impairment, damage, or destruction. Everything else is subjective. Gate camping is just as much “real” PvP as any other form of PvP. You can argue all you want about the level of skill required or the amount of entertainment value it provides, you can mock those who do it in local or think less of their abilities, but at the end of the day they are still blowing up other players ships and stealing their loot that drops. That’s PvP. > [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > Imagine CCP introduced an “I win” button. Most of the players quit, and some that stuck around would be “I win” players. > > So your argument is, we should keep that “I win” button in the game because those players are important? I’m a little confused as to what your hypothetical “I win” button is. Are you talking about gate camps? Because if you are, they’re easily the most broken “I win” button in New Eden because I and many others bypass/avoid them all the friggin time. > [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > > As much as you seem to loathe them, they are every bit as important as you and the OP in terms of overall game balance. > > Errr how? What is this game balance you’re talking about? Game balance? You jump blind into a group of hostile players. You are in a slow-aligning, non-combat ship without much tank to speak of. What do you expect to happen here? Right, your ship goes pop, the hostile gang takes your stuff, and if you’re smart you can get away in your pod. Or, you send in a scout to identify any camps to avoid them. Or you jump the gate in a fast-aligning ship or one that can warp cloaked (and hope they don’t decloak you first) and give a LOL in local as you drift on past. That’s game balance. > [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > Gatecamping drives people away from the game. It’s that simple. You have provided no evidence of this. Put up or shut up. If I saw hard, reliable data indicating that losec gate camping was having a significant impact on active subscriptions or player logins, I may change my mind. But losec gatecamping has been a thing pretty much since the servers went online and nobody in those 15-ish years has furnished such data so…good luck… ---
**Author:** ![Loki\_Orkund](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loki_orkund/32/146159_2.png) [@Loki\_Orkund](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loki_Orkund)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/146 "2019-07-13T15:50:34Z")
> This is a logical fallacy. You and the OP are arguing a premise (i.e. that reducing/eliminating losec gate camping would make the game better) and A) assuming that your premise is correct That’s not a logical fallacy. > and B) not providing any evidence to back up your premise Nor is that. It does not need explaining why gatecamping is ■■■■ game design. Everyone gets this. Even people like yourself who rely on it to pad their killsheet get it on some level. They deny it, but a little bit of themselves dies every time they do it. 😆 > Kudos to you for being willing to nerf your own playstyle, but being gracious does not grant you the authority to define what “real” PvP is. Actually I do. I get to define it within the scope of my usage. Kinda authoritarian. I love how you think your pomposity counts for something in mine or anyone else’s world. > I’m a little confused as to what your hypothetical “I win” button is. Press a key to automatically win the fight. Clearer now? Oh wait, I forgot you were you just being disingenuous. > That’s game balance. Should I also pompously declare that you don’t get to define game balance? Or just point out your definition is so meaningless you might as well not have bothered. > If I saw hard, reliable data indicating that losec gate camping was having a significant impact on active subscriptions or player logins, I may change my mind. So with solid data, you only “may” change your mind. You’re so transparent, gatecamper. Tell you what. You tell me who’s asking people leaving the game how much gatecamping was a factor, and I’ll go ask them nicely for their data. 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/147 "2019-07-13T16:06:12Z")
> [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > It does not need explaining why gatecamping is ■■■■ game design. Most people get this. You are stating opinion, not fact so ya, you need to explain it. If it was a fact you would have proof but you don’t so… ---
**Author:** ![Hortgar\_Frost](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hortgar_frost/32/187451_2.png) [@Hortgar\_Frost](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hortgar_Frost)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/148 "2019-07-13T16:07:11Z")
This is a very good suggestion! I totally agree with you. Plz CCP, hear this! =] ---
**Author:** ![Loki\_Orkund](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loki_orkund/32/146159_2.png) [@Loki\_Orkund](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loki_Orkund)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/149 "2019-07-13T16:09:46Z")
> you need to explain it Already did, rather superfluously because everyone already gets it. You need to explain why gatecamping needs to stay in the game. _grabs popcorn_ ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/150 "2019-07-13T16:14:46Z")
The vast majority of players are fine with gates and know how to use them properly. Only the lazy don’t and complain about them…that’s a fact and I don’t need to explain that any more…16 years of it proves that it works. (hey being a dishonest debater is really easy! I see why you do it.) ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/151 "2019-07-13T17:59:30Z")
> [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > It does not need explaining why gatecamping is ■■■■ game design. Everyone gets this. Even people like yourself who rely on it to pad their killsheet get it on some level. Appeal to the masses. Logical fallacy. Asserting that everyone agrees with you does not make your position correct. Seriously, go take a class in logic if you’re going to debate issues this intensely. Otherwise, folks who have will just have a field day with you. > [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > > Kudos to you for being willing to nerf your own playstyle, but being gracious does not grant you the authority to define what “real” PvP is. > > Actually I do. I get to define it within the scope of my usage. Kinda authoritarian. I love how you think your pomposity counts for something in mine or anyone else’s world. Your authority to define the scope of your gameplay begins and ends with you. If you want more say than that, get a job with CCP. > [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > > I’m a little confused as to what your hypothetical “I win” button is. > > Press a key to automatically win the fight. Clearer now? Oh wait, I forgot you were you just being disingenuous. Well, we’re talking about gate camping. That’s hardly a 100% “I Win” scenario, which is precisely what I’ve been trying to point out (more on this later). There are ample ways to bypass/avoid gate camps, so they cannot possibly be “I Win” buttons as you call them, hence my confusion. > [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > > That’s game balance. > > Should I also pompously declare that you don’t get to define game balance? Or just point out your definition is so meaningless you might as well not have bothered. If I’m coming off as pompous, I apologize. I have a hard time with words sometimes, so I like to be precise and detailed in replies to conversation. It’s not pomposity, it’s me trying to make sure that I’m coming across clearly. > [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > > If I saw hard, reliable data indicating that losec gate camping was having a significant impact on active subscriptions or player logins, I may change my mind. > > So with solid data, you only “may” change your mind. You’re so transparent, gatecamper. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Given how long gatecamping has been going on in EvE and how little CCP has done to stop it, I’d have a hard time believing that such data exists. Ergo, I’d take it with a grain of salt until it was well verified, preferably over a long period of time. That’s just basic science. Also, remember that “I Win” bit? Case in point, the last time I attempted anything remotely like a gatecamp was [here](https://zkillboard.com/related/30002236/201509180200/): I got baited and hotdropped and had the floor wiped with my backside. But _suuuure_, I’m a gatecamper. Also…ad hominem. Attacking your opponent in a debate doesn’t invalidate their stance. _EDIT: Added the zkillboard link after their blackout._ ---
**Author:** ![Loki\_Orkund](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loki_orkund/32/146159_2.png) [@Loki\_Orkund](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loki_Orkund)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/152 "2019-07-13T21:33:40Z")
> Seriously, go take a class in logic if you’re going to debate issues this intensely. Did it at A-level **and** University. You? > Otherwise, folks who have will just have a field day with you. You and the other gatecamper keep trying but we’re just laughing. > Your authority to define the scope of your gameplay begins and ends with you. If you want more say than that, get a job with CCP. You’re gonna need some brown shirts before you get to control speech here, sonny. > Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Yes, abd stating the obvious does not. > Also, remember that “I Win” bit? It either went over your head or you’re being disingenuous again. The fact that people were “I Win” does not mean we should keep “I Win” gameplay. Likewise, the fact that people are gatecampers, does not mean we should keep gatecamping. That’s your only counterargument and it’s pathetic. You’ve likewise made zero effective arguments in favour of keeping gatecamping, period. But I find it entertaining so feel free to continue. @Runa_Yamaguchi Strike one. ---
**Author:** ![Maria\_Dragoon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maria_dragoon/32/176816_2.png) [@Maria\_Dragoon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maria_Dragoon)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/153 "2019-07-13T21:50:28Z")
> [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > Did it at A-level **and** University. To be fair, as someone whom claims to have gone to University, and recieved a GPA of 4.0 (AKA the A-level grades), then one of the basic things you learn in your English elective is that if you make a claim to something, you must source and back that claim up with something. o7: Fellow college grad. ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/154 "2019-07-13T22:18:10Z")
> [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > > Seriously, go take a class in logic if you’re going to debate issues this intensely. > > Did it at A-level **and** University. You? Then you’d better go back and hit your books because you’re still presupposing your point, appealing to the masses, etc. > [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > > Otherwise, folks who have will just have a field day with you. > > You and the other gatecamper keep trying but we’re just laughing. You have yet to establish that I am a “gate camper”, and even if you had, me being a gate camper in no way invalidates my view on gatecamping. > [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > > Your authority to define the scope of your gameplay begins and ends with you. If you want more say than that, get a job with CCP. > > You’re gonna need some brown shirts before you get to control speech here, sonny. I didn’t say that you didn’t have authority to talk about other styles of gameplay. I merely said that you don’t get to define it for others. There’s no attempt to block free speech there, only an attempt to point out that you don’t get to define how others enjoy playing EvE. Also, you just skirted dangerously close to violating Goodwin’s Law with that “brown shirt” comment, so I’m out because you obviously don’t have a leg to stand on and continuing at this point is pointless, and just about as entertaining as camping a losec gate. (Plus, the forums just asked me to stop responding repeatedly to you, which I tend to take as a hint.) Enjoy defeat. _(That last bit is me being pompous… 😛)_ ---
**Author:** ![Loki\_Orkund](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loki_orkund/32/146159_2.png) [@Loki\_Orkund](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loki_Orkund)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 10:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/155 "2019-07-13T22:47:59Z")
> then one of the basic things you learn in your English elective is that if you make a claim to something, you must source and back that claim up with something. OK, back up the claim you just made there. ---
**Author:** ![Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/runa_yamaguchi/32/197532_2.png) [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Runa_Yamaguchi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/156 "2019-07-13T23:10:08Z")
> [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > OK, back up the claim you just made there. When we ask you to do that you refuse…odd how that works… ---
**Author:** ![Maria\_Dragoon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maria_dragoon/32/176816_2.png) [@Maria\_Dragoon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maria_Dragoon)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/157 "2019-07-13T23:31:41Z")
> [@Runa\_Yamaguchi](#): > > When we ask you to do that you refuse…odd how that works… Don’t worry, I’m just charging my camera so that I can take pictures of my ancient “Rules for writers” Book that I spent like 80 dollars on for my English 101 (and in turn saved money for) 102 class. ---
**Author:** ![Loki\_Orkund](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loki_orkund/32/146159_2.png) [@Loki\_Orkund](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loki_Orkund)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/158 "2019-07-13T23:54:05Z")
Thank you for demonstrating why the request is just an attempt to derail the thread. So back to the question, @Runa_Yamaguchi. Why does gatecamping need to be in the game? Two strikes left. ---
**Author:** ![Maria\_Dragoon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maria_dragoon/32/176816_2.png) [@Maria\_Dragoon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maria_Dragoon)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/159 "2019-07-13T23:54:56Z")
> [@Loki\_Orkund](#): > > Why does gatecamping need to be in the game? Two strikes left. You are the one advocating for change, so you need to provide logical, and sound proof on why the change needs to be put in place. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694/160 "2019-07-14T00:24:15Z")
> [@Maria\_Dragoon](#): > > You are the one advocating for change, so you need to provide logical, and sound proof on why the change needs to be put in place. I’m sorry, but that is simply not right. While you are correct in your belief that this is how burden of proof would work in normal, adult discourse, you are currently engaged in an argument on the Eve Online forums. I’m afraid your rhetorical options here are limited to: 1. “Reeeeee” 2. Like (1), but in all caps. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-low-sec-gate-camping-a-concord-able-offence/173694.md?page=9)