# Making risk vs reward fair for all **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 29, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562 "2020-01-29T16:41:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/21 "2020-01-29T17:31:12Z")
> [@z0ra\_Berg](#): > > I think that someone who believes that he knows what’s fair for everyone, especially new players, usually has only his own interests in mind. This. Especially when his posts are 80% insults and rants. He is so self centered that he believe the good of the game is the good of himself. Hey, you are not good ! ---
**Author:** ![Daoden](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daoden/32/271841_2.png) [@Daoden](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daoden)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/22 "2020-01-29T17:36:15Z")
I agree trig invasions should be in null, where they actively bash your structures, create random enviromental effects, and kill off all the bots with extreme prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![z0ra\_Berg](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/z0ra_berg/32/187042_2.png) [@z0ra\_Berg](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/z0ra_Berg)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 5:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/23 "2020-01-29T17:43:21Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Eventually someone has to make game design decisions, so claiming that everyone is equally wrong is just wasting everyone’s time. I wasn’t aware I needed to add a disclaimer. My post applies to people who aren’t actually designing the game. Dare I say that the devs in EVE do not actually look at “fairness”, because “fairness” doesn’t apply to the laws of the jungle. They probably look at “balance” in terms of income, activities, effort, but definitely not at “fairness”. Fairness is something for people who suck and can’t survive. It’s an idea created for competitions, not survival. Plenty of evidence out there suggests that EVE is only fair in the one single regard: It is equally unfair for everyone. Adding some artificial “fairness” does not actually serve the game. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/24 "2020-01-29T17:48:55Z")
> [@z0ra\_Berg](#): > > Fairness is something for people who suck and can’t survive. Fairness is good for making all people have a challenge, therefore making an activity interesting. I agree 100% with you though ; eve is not fair, and never claimed to be. Fairness is enforced by artificial rules, and this is the opposite of a sandbox. ---
**Author:** ![Sebat\_Hadah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sebat_hadah/32/248462_2.png) [@Sebat\_Hadah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sebat_Hadah)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/25 "2020-01-29T18:19:18Z")
ALL of this is a horrible idea. I look at these bullet points and i see a recipe for killing eve rather than fixing it. Here is an idea: why not make level 4 and incursions HARDER! or at least more challenging in some way instead of straight-up REMOVING THEM. None of this will encourage people to “move on” it will make them mad then rage quit. oh, and btw just because you are in more dangerous space doesn’t guarantee you a better payout. TO be honest no one is sure on how to “fix” this game but it certainly isn’t this. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/26 "2020-01-29T18:27:39Z")
> [@Sebat\_Hadah](#): > > Here is an idea: why not make level 4 and incursions HARDER! Because PvE can never be difficult. Someone will figure out the ideal way to farm it, write the how-to guide, and make it the standard zero-risk farming technique. And if you somehow make new content with 9999999999 DPS NPCs or whatever you’ve effectively removed it anyway because nobody will bother to attempt it. ---
**Author:** ![Gethsemene](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gethsemene/32/182431_2.png) [@Gethsemene](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gethsemene)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/27 "2020-01-29T18:36:43Z")
I agree that this will kill the game for new players and for many vets who like solo play because they can’t commit the hours for corp or sov life. Honestly incursions, which I fly, have just been nerfed by over 60%, so to see them nerfed again just ‘because hi-sec’ would be a real issue for me and those I fly with. Level4s are an excellent way to build up a cushion before embarking on more dangerous activities. Experienced players often forget that many goals seem unachievable to new and less experienced players. Having exciting and high-ish level activities accessible to players with fewer hours ingame and fewer hours to devote to eve is a powerful reason to stay subbed and keep playing. ---
**Author:** ![Sebat\_Hadah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sebat_hadah/32/248462_2.png) [@Sebat\_Hadah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sebat_Hadah)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/28 "2020-01-29T18:37:13Z")
> [@Sebat\_Hadah](#): > > Here is an idea: why not make level 4 and incursions HARDER! or at least more challenging in some way instead of straight-up REMOVING THEM. @Merin_Ryskin lets examine the rest of that concept shall we “or at least more challenging…” you are not incorrect in your statement on farming. However, what CCP could possibly consider is making missions more random or RNG. mixing things up a bit. ergo making them more challenging. I think perhaps they could draw inspiration from other games and incorporate some kind of story related to the backstory or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Solonius\_Rex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solonius_rex/32/388172_2.png) [@Solonius\_Rex](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solonius_Rex)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/29 "2020-01-29T18:37:14Z")
> [@Legit\_HyperN\_et](#): > > earning anything beyond 1mil isk per hour in highsec needs to be nerfed. Okay, yeah thats a little too much. Cant really support you on that. ---
**Author:** ![Sebat\_Hadah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sebat_hadah/32/248462_2.png) [@Sebat\_Hadah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sebat_Hadah)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/30 "2020-01-29T18:43:47Z")
exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Gethsemene](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gethsemene/32/182431_2.png) [@Gethsemene](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gethsemene)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/31 "2020-01-29T18:46:00Z")
This farming thing again. Every player in the game is farming. We live in the Age of the Rorqual but whether you are tending your killboard, shooting rocks, running C5s in your dread, getting dank carrier ticks, scanning sites in a WH, plexing in FW, running Abyssals, conduits, missions, incursions or epic arcs you are ‘farming’ something. You are also playing the game the way you want to. ‘Farming’ is just ‘playing’. ---
**Author:** ![Solonius\_Rex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solonius_rex/32/388172_2.png) [@Solonius\_Rex](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solonius_Rex)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/32 "2020-01-29T18:46:12Z")
> [@Gethsemene](#): > > Honestly incursions, which I fly, have just been nerfed by over 60% The number of sites were nerfed but the payment wasnt, which was the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Sebat\_Hadah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sebat_hadah/32/248462_2.png) [@Sebat\_Hadah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sebat_Hadah)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/33 "2020-01-29T18:50:52Z")
i would argue that payment isnt the issue per say. If gankers stopped being lazy, camping market hubs, and started following incursion fleets around there would be some more incursion runner deaths. Perhaps a version of code that preys upon incursion runners. ---
**Author:** ![Gethsemene](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gethsemene/32/182431_2.png) [@Gethsemene](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gethsemene)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/34 "2020-01-29T18:52:28Z")
There is now an enforced break between focuses which radically reduces how much can be earned, simply as there is no incursion to run. This also means players have to do other things, which I personally am ok with, as I like Abyssals and ECs. I don’t see why payouts on the single spawn we are left with should be nerfed. The isk is not bad but the investment in ships and modules for the average player is very considerable. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy\_Bernstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/foggy_bernstein/32/407887_2.png) [@Foggy\_Bernstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Foggy_Bernstein)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/35 "2020-01-29T18:54:36Z")
> [@Legit\_HyperN\_et](#): > > This will allow the new players to get introduced to the game but incentivized to spread their wings into low and null and form lasting corp bonds and less solo play. Translation: This will allow me to continue being a lazy ■■■■ gate-camper because I’m too stupid to do any of the literally thousand other things in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Sebat\_Hadah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sebat_hadah/32/248462_2.png) [@Sebat\_Hadah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sebat_Hadah)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/36 "2020-01-29T18:55:38Z")
and there by reducing the player population and killing the game. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 7:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/37 "2020-01-29T19:01:35Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > tutorial region Citation required. Because nothing CCP have ever said says highsec is a tutorial zone. Just your hatred for high sec. And to answer the question you are sure to throw back, the interdependent design is in the May 2015 CSM minutes from what I can find. Many of the older design documents appear to no longer be public, I believe they were linked of eveolopedia. And no longer exist in an accessible location. ---
**Author:** ![Solonius\_Rex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solonius_rex/32/388172_2.png) [@Solonius\_Rex](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solonius_Rex)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/38 "2020-01-29T19:07:53Z")
> [@Gethsemene](#): > > The isk is not bad but the investment in ships and modules for the average player is very considerable. I used to run WTM incursions and the modules and ships for the entry level ships were very little. Basically we accepted T1 battleships and Meta 4 modules. I made my ISK back in like 3 hours. There isnt a lot of investment there. And yet the payout was substantial. Getting 100 mill an hour was normal for me. I made tens, probably hundreds of billions of ISK just running incursions. > [@Gethsemene](#): > > There is now an enforced break between focuses which radically reduces how much can be earned, simply as there is no incursion to run. This also means players have to do other things, which I personally am ok with, as I like Abyssals and ECs. They basically replaced incusions with other types of incursions, and I think thats the point. Otherwise, too much of Hisec space would be under some sort of threat. ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/39 "2020-01-29T19:13:40Z")
> [@Legit\_HyperN\_et](#): > > This will allow the new players to get introduced to the game but incentivized to spread their wings into low and null and form lasting corp bonds and less solo play. Bollocks. Go away. ---
**Author:** ![Solonius\_Rex](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solonius_rex/32/388172_2.png) [@Solonius\_Rex](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solonius_Rex)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562/40 "2020-01-29T19:13:44Z")
> [@Sebat\_Hadah](#): > > i would argue that payment isnt the issue per say. If gankers stopped being lazy, camping market hubs, and started following incursion fleets around I dont understand. What does payment have to do with ganking. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/making-risk-vs-reward-fair-for-all/214562.md?page=3)