# Militia corruption: Breaking the Deafening Silence on Dirty Deals **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [October 17, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136 "2019-10-17T16:48:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 7:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/64 "2019-10-18T07:57:02Z")
I understand the concerns being raised in this thread, and I sympathize with them. But I do have some questions and observations of my own: > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > They contribute nothing to the war effort, and instead soak up lucrative security contracts from militia agents, doing only the bare minimum required of them to qualify for lucrative rewards in LP and standings. Doesn’t that mean that in the eyes of the people in charge, they _are_ contributing to the war effort? Just because we don’t necessarily see the benefits of those contributions doesn’t mean the upper echelons of the TLF and 24IC don’t. > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > Near criminal neglect from militia recruiters has enabled them to continue these practices with complete freedom, and it is clear from their employment records that many of them simply switch sides as soon as it becomes profitable to do so. Of course they do. Because it doesn’t _matter_. You bring up exactly that point in the very _next sentences_: > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > Second, I don’t believe it is fair to compare an honestly negotiated agreement between hostile forces to some kind of conspiracy to betray the civilian populations of the affected systems. Especially not when the very governments who sponsor the CEWAPA conflict have done literally the exact same thing by voluntarily agreeing to subject their territory to this war in the first place. CONCORD and the empires _won’t let the war be won_. If they won’t let the war be won, if they’ve structured the war so that switching sides _is_ the most effective way to benefit from being active in the warzone… why _shouldn’t_ they do it? > [@Arsia\_Elkin](#): > > Entering a war and being willing to take the risks associated with losing in an area aren’t the same as purposefully losing. What risks? I’m serious, Arsia, what risks are the governments supposed to be taking here? That they’ll ‘lose’ systems they’ve lost a dozen times already? They opted to expose those systems to this. They _chose_ to risk those civilians, their lives, their well-being… and let’s face it, we both know how risk works: whatever you’re risking, you make all of your plans with the assumption that you lost it. So the empires _wrote those systems off_, right from the start. Any revenue they get from them, any products, any people coming out of them… that’s all gravy. > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > Another opinion, and indeed the stated goal of the signatories of the agreement itself, is to reduce the influence of corrupt and disloyal mission runners on the warzone. But the whole system of the CEWPA war is corrupt. It’s _designed_ to encourage people to be mercenaries, and mercenaries _follow the money_. Mercenaries flip sides. They’re disloyal. Reduce the influence of corrupt and disloyal mission runners? Why? What exactly is _achieved_ by reducing the influence of mission runners? > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > I find it telling that you completely ignored everything I had to say about the potential for this agreement to provide more stability and security for the civilian population of the impacted systems. Except it doesn’t. Any gains in stability and security being made without a road toward a permanent peace is just inviting civilians to invest in rebuilding, so they can lose all over again. It’s a con, a magician’s force, providing the _illusion_ of hope, of stability. Or do you really think this peace agreement for a few isolated systems will prove permanent? > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > When I see a mission runner in a two day old skill injected clone, probably utilizing illegal AI enhancements to coordinate with the three other tactical destroyers in the gang warping through system, and I identify that “person” as failing to contribute to the war effort… I speak with authority. On what basis? Is that group achieving objectives deemed worth pursuing by militia employment agents, or are they not? If they are, what ‘authority’ do you claim to judge those objectives insufficient? > [@Templar\_Dane](#): > > Some of us enjoy the endless war and glorious capsuleer combat. Well, some of you are pretty sick puppies, then, ain’cha? > [@Templar\_Dane](#): > > we started a blockade of the agent stations to hurt these nonparticipants But again, how are they not participating, if they’re achieving objectives given to them by their agents? Or are you just taking issue with them not participating in _capsuleer_ battles? > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > FDU bureaucrats have never liberated a system from the State Protectorate, and they never will. **NONE** of those systems have ever been liberated, no matter _who_ claims to control them. Not one. Because they’re all still trapped in the meaningless bullshittery that is CONCORD’s little bloodsport league, with the empires keeping the talent close at hand, marketing their home teams, and cleaning up on the merch. > [@Templar\_Dane](#): > > We will continue to do what we are doing, prosecuting our war against the mission runners, and we will fight **anyone** that gets in our way. If you idiots were significant enough to matter, I might even consider testing that. ---
**Author:** ![Rinai\_Vero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rinai_vero/32/390870_2.png) [@Rinai\_Vero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rinai_Vero)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 8:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/65 "2019-10-18T08:58:34Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > If they are, what ‘authority’ do you claim to judge those objectives insufficient? Literally my own, as stated in the sentence directly after the one you quoted. My combat and leadership experience in the warzone. My observations of who contributes and who doesn’t. Anyway, we get it: you have a cynical view of the CEWPA War. Hell, most of us in the thick of it do too. CONCORD and the Empires have indeed paid little enough attention to the warzone that it is easy to think that none of it matters to anyone. Those of us who live in these contested systems know differently, though, even if what we see isn’t reported every day in The Scope. I am very much of the view that these wars are what we make of them. Just like your interminable nullsec feuds are what you make of those. Lets not pretend that essentially the same problems of dead weight membership don’t plague the null blocs. If anything, the illegal exploitation of AI systems has been an even greater blight there. Null blocs have used metrics of participation in strategic operations to evaluate pilot performance and trim the fat for years. That’s exactly the kind of judgement I am making here, according to my own standard. I don’t give a damn whether the bureaucrats in the FDU agree with me, or what perverse incentives CONCORD and the Empires have created. Nor, frankly, do I care what the overlords of Delve think about it either. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 12:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/66 "2019-10-18T12:15:40Z")
> [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > Null blocs have used metrics of participation in strategic operations to evaluate pilot performance and trim the fat for years. That’s exactly the kind of judgement I am making here, according to my own standard. No, it’s not. See, when we apply those metrics, we’re applying them to personal activity in conflicts for which _we_ are the only arbiters of objectives. The people doing the application—the ones making the judgment—are the people who determine the overall strategic goals. We are, in effect, the people those agents work _for_. So no, you’re not making exactly the same kind of judgment. You’re analogous to the line pilot. And we _do_ have guidelines for how line pilots should apply those standards: Just follow your damned orders, and stop trying to fecking **think**. It’s clearly not your strong suit. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/67 "2019-10-18T14:25:21Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > we both know how risk works: whatever you’re risking, you make all of your plans with the assumption that you lost it. > > So the empires _wrote those systems off_ , right from the start. Any revenue they get from them, any products, any people coming out of them… that’s all gravy. That’s indeed how I handle my risks. In my mind, anything I’ve undocked has already exploded, for example. But I don’t think it’s that simple for the empires. For the Empire, I’m not convinced we saw the war as a risk _before_ it was enacted. We don’t particularly have a wonderful record in regards to not being arrogant in regards to war. For the Republic, the proportionality larger amount of space they need to risk seems too large to easily be written off. So I just don’t think concepts that apply at our individual levels, necessarily do on an empire level. ---
**Author:** ![Rinai\_Vero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rinai_vero/32/390870_2.png) [@Rinai\_Vero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rinai_Vero)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/68 "2019-10-18T14:49:12Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > We are, in effect, the people those agents work _for_ . So no, you’re not making exactly the same kind of judgment. You’re analogous to the line pilot. And we _do_ have guidelines for how line pilots should apply those standards: Just follow your damned orders, and stop trying to fecking **think**. It’s clearly not your strong suit. What a laugh. Is this what you call thinking? That because militia mission agents exist, somehow Capsuleers aren’t allowed to have opinions or agency? Thank you for your ridiculous opinion, but no. Honestly your entire position here seems completely disingenuous the more you go on. At every turn, your argument seems to be that because militia pilots participate in a flawed system, we are not only obligated to tolerate those flaws but to defend them as well. Again, no thanks. Oh, and by the way I’m finding it increasingly suspicious that I keep mentioning the impact of illegal AI enhancements, and people keep ignoring that part of my argument. For the record, there is no evidence that CONCORD or the FDU / STPRO / IC24 / TLF have _ever_ sanctioned such technology. In fact, CONCORD revokes pilots licenses every day for such violations, yet the problem persists. Clearly they did not intend for these mission agents to provide such fertile ground for the use of forbidden technology. So stick that in this entire ■■■■■■■■ claim that just because militia agents hand out these missions, that they sanction all associated behaviors, and pilots exploiting their mistakes are immune from criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Harkon\_Thorson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/harkon_thorson/32/320172_2.png) [@Harkon\_Thorson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Harkon_Thorson)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/69 "2019-10-18T14:51:44Z")
So much pride. So many assumptions and so little actual knowledge and understanding. I don´t know if this place was decent once but as far as I can see for every good and reasonable contribution there are 5 insane, self aggrandizing, ridiculous or just stupid ones. It seems more important to have gotcha moments and win senseless arguements then to be right and act accordingly. This whole summit is turning more and more into a snake pit. As for our involvement with the mission blockade I do not answer to slavers or self important capsuleers but to the Republic and the Sanmatar. Call me a traitor all you want. Ushra’Khan and myself will serve the Matari. Always. And to those seem so concerned about the civilians in the warzone: I lost thousands of brothers and sisters in their defense. I died for them again and again. I fought when the slavers took the whole warzone. I warped with six fearless Matari into 100 Amarrs when Evati fell. I can say similar things about many of the amarrian signatories of the treaty when we took the warzone. So it feels hollow to be lectured judged by those that didn´t care back then and all the countless times those systems changed hands in the last years. That being said. Continue your cackling and clamour. I´ll be in the warzone if anyone want to follow up their words with actions. Chief Harkon Thorson Ushra’Khan ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/70 "2019-10-18T15:05:02Z")
> [@Harkon\_Thorson](#): > > as far as I can see for every good and reasonable contribution there are 5 insane, self aggrandizing, ridiculous or just stupid ones. You forgot ones that don’t address any criticisms and just deflect, but as I said, not my house to clean. Have a blessed day, Chief Thorson. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/71 "2019-10-18T15:16:52Z")
> [@Harkon\_Thorson](#): > > I don´t know if this place was decent once but as far as I can see for every good and reasonable contribution there are 5 insane, self aggrandizing, ridiculous or just stupid ones. It seems more important to have gotcha moments and win senseless arguements then to be right and act accordingly. This whole summit is turning more and more into a snake pit. Can’t argue with that. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/72 "2019-10-18T15:44:00Z")
> [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > Oh, and by the way I’m finding it increasingly suspicious that I keep mentioning the impact of illegal AI enhancements, and people keep ignoring that part of my argument. Well, when any of _us_ can prove or disprove such allegations, maybe then we’ll comment on it. I know I _can’t_ prove or disprove them, so they’re not a thing I can reasonably factor into my statements. That _said_… > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > So stick that in this entire ■■■■■■■■ claim that just because militia agents hand out these missions, that they sanction all associated behaviors, and pilots exploiting their mistakes are immune from criticism. That’s a lovely straw man you’ve constructed there. Nobody’s said anyone is immune from criticism. What’s being said is ‘the claim that they don’t contribute appears to be wrong’. > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > Is this what you call thinking? That because militia mission agents exist, somehow Capsuleers aren’t allowed to have opinions or agency? No, it’s what I call ‘shut the feck up’. You’re allowed to have all the opinions you want. That doesn’t mean anyone’s obligated to take them seriously, or that your opinions should carry any weight whatsoever with the people who actually decide what behaviors are permissible, and how the militias should delegate assignments. > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > At every turn, your argument seems to be that because militia pilots participate in a flawed system, we are not only obligated to tolerate those flaws but to defend them as well. Again, no thanks. Nope. Again, it’s a lovely little scarecrow, but I’m not suggesting you should defend any flaws in the system. Only that _as the system is designed_, those flaws are actually intended design features. CONCORD wants the warzones to be places where nobody can win for very long. That means they want to encourage people to switch sides as soon as either side is winning ‘too much’. You don’t have to like that. Honestly, I’d think you were masochists if you did. But then, I think you’re masochists for devoting all your energies to a war you won’t ever be allowed to win _or_ lose, anyway. It’s all well and good to enjoy exercising your craft, to use the skills you’ve spent most of your life honing and perfecting. Stars know, I feel that way. I get a deep sense of joy and fulfillment when I’m in harness, weaving my pilots through hellishly concentrated enemy fire. But when we go on campaign, we have objectives we can complete, or fail to complete, for the whole of the campaign. Burn down Tribute. Keep Circle-of-TEST from gaining a foothold in Catch, etc etc. Win or lose, we _have_ victory conditions. Our efforts aren’t an endless cycle of futile, _pointless_ deaths. And while I can completely understand people who go into that, who make the effort in the warzones out of _duty_… I will _never_ understand the maniacs who do it _for fun_. People who go and get people killed just for fun… should probably be locked up. ---
**Author:** ![Rinai\_Vero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rinai_vero/32/390870_2.png) [@Rinai\_Vero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rinai_Vero)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/73 "2019-10-18T15:58:04Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > People who go and get people killed just for fun… should probably be locked up. Whew. What a wild ride. The only way I can imagine you thinking this sentiment (or any of the rest of it) will be taken seriously is that you are posting it for the consumption of baseliners who have literally never met a Goon. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/74 "2019-10-18T16:03:03Z")
> [@Harkon\_Thorson](#): > > So much pride Perhaps something to be aspired to… > [@Harkon\_Thorson](#): > > As for our involvement with the mission blockade Your involvement with the mission blockade has thus far been one failed push, a lost system while you were napping, and complete abdication of all offensives to those loyal to the Amarr signatories. Past glories don’t excuse present failures, however it’s not for I but your Republic and ‘Sanmatar’ to judge your lack of potency. Your actions are that of a traitor certainly but more than that of a leader who has lost his way, my understanding is that your alliance once had a pride and dignity nowhere to be seen in its current shell. Neither of those things are found indulging in a criminal enterprise to profit from war, there’s no service to your people in such. Much as your alliance’s history is in opposition to my people, I cannot help but hold some hope that you find your back to integrity and service to your people. If only that so when I am compelled to fight for my own, it’s against an enemy I can hold in respect. On a last note Chief Thorson, not all of those who speak against you have been lax in standing against you. I allowed my deeds to speak long before my words. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/75 "2019-10-18T16:07:23Z")
Plenty of Goons should probably be locked up, too. ---
**Author:** ![Utsukushi\_Shi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/utsukushi_shi/32/165284_2.png) [@Utsukushi\_Shi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Utsukushi_Shi)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/76 "2019-10-18T16:45:36Z")
War can be complicated. When on the field total destruction of your enemy is desired but in the boardroom cooler heads can prevail. I would think a reduction in the velocity of the pendulums swing is likely to benefit both sides. While at base this Accord doesn’t exactly address that issue it might put pressure on the government’s involved to rationalize the rules of engagement somewhat, leading to real change. Or not but ■■■■ it, at this point it’s probably worth trying something crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Rinai\_Vero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rinai_vero/32/390870_2.png) [@Rinai\_Vero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rinai_Vero)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/77 "2019-10-18T16:56:30Z")
I’m glad we agree on that. While we’re at it, you might consider moderating your conceit that your objectives in null sec campaigns are so much more meaningful than in the warzone. You and I both know how often sovereignty in null security space has turned over. We both know that your sovereignty rests on CONCORD rulesets that are every bit as flawed in their own way as those the militias endure. The kinds of objectives that you mentioned are exactly the kinds of objectives that we set for ourselves in the Militia. Holding on to our home systems, capturing strategically valuable enemy systems to stage our fleets from, defending our space based infrastructure and destroying enemy assets. None of those objectives have ever had anything to do with directives from the FDU hierarchy, which has always confined itself to mere automated LP reward distributions and standings audits. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/78 "2019-10-18T17:46:44Z")
> [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > While we’re at it, you might consider moderating your conceit that your objectives in null sec campaigns are so much more meaningful than in the warzone. Meaningful? Only on a subjective level. But see, that’s kind of the point… > [@Rinai\_Vero](#): > > The kinds of objectives that you mentioned are exactly the kinds of objectives that we set for ourselves in the Militia. Holding on to our home systems, capturing strategically valuable enemy systems to stage our fleets from, defending our space based infrastructure and destroying enemy assets. None of those objectives have ever had anything to do with directives from the FDU hierarchy, which has always confined itself to mere automated LP reward distributions and standings audits. See this? This actually _highlights_ my point. **You are not fighting your own war.** Look, when we set our objectives, we’re setting the objectives _of the war_. We go to war because we decide to go to war. We go to war for the reasons we decide to go to war over. When you try to draw comparisons between your objectives and ours, you run into that small stumbling block: **You’re fighting someone else’s war**. The governments decide where you can fight. They decide the goals. They decide the scope of the war. They decide what constitutes victory and completed objectives, and what doesn’t. And those ‘mere automated LP rewards’ and ‘standings audits’? _That’s the war_. That’s the only thing that actually matters to the people in charge of things. You guys can set your own objectives. You can hold your home, set up advance stagers, bicker and squabble over what the map says… _it doesn’t matter_. That’s not the war. Not to the guys running the war. Not to the people who have actual authority over those systems and what happens in them. All _they_ care about is those standings audits, and the LP distribution. Because controlling space… that’s not what that ‘war’ is about. It never _was_. CONCORD and the empires didn’t set up the CEWPA warzones in order to contest space. They don’t care about the civilians in those systems. They _sacrificed_ those systems, wrote them off as a potentially interesting backdrop for their bloodsports. The purpose of the war, the real strategic objective… is _you_. Keeping you close, keeping you invested, keeping you _useful_, and—if possible—used to taking orders. Their orders. And that means that all of the fighting you do, all of the systems you contest, it’s all meaningful _to you_… but to _them_? To them, it’s just busy-work. It’s you masturbating to keep yourselves occupied. None of it has any impact on the real objectives of the CEWPA: to maintain a supply of reasonably tame, semi-independent capsuleers handy for when the empires need people to go and get something done, but don’t want to risk their precious navies. As far as the actual militias—the TLF, FDU, 24IC, and StaPro, as opposed to the capsuleer organizations that sign on to work under their auspices like U’K, FEDUP, PIE, CALSF—as far as they’re concerned, the mission runners are the people they want. The rest of you? You’re just… not contributing. > [@Utsukushi\_Shi](#): > > I would think a reduction in the velocity of the pendulums swing is likely to benefit both sides. While at base this Accord doesn’t exactly address that issue it might put pressure on the government’s involved to rationalize the rules of engagement somewhat, leading to real change. How? In order for there to be change, the people setting the rules of the Pendulum Games need to change those rules. In order to convince them to change the rules, you have to have something they want—you need leverage. What leverage do the capsuleers in the warzone have? ‘Well maybe we just won’t fight, then’? Give it a try for two months with no fighting. See who breaks first, CONCORD, or the capsuleers… if you can even manage it. ---
**Author:** ![Utsukushi\_Shi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/utsukushi_shi/32/165284_2.png) [@Utsukushi\_Shi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Utsukushi_Shi)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/79 "2019-10-18T18:00:22Z")
Seems a sort of circular argument. If the mission runners are what’s important to the Empires as the tool of continual oppression or whatever then it would follow that inhibiting that process would effect the Agents participation metrics or whatever exactly they are looking at to justify all this. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/80 "2019-10-18T18:06:27Z")
Oppression? That’s a really strange way to read ‘they want to keep you guys handy for when they need you’. And… no, inhibiting that process doesn’t really achieve anything. To them, it’s just more masturbation, more ‘eh, whatever, they’ll amuse themselves’. ---
**Author:** ![Rinai\_Vero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rinai_vero/32/390870_2.png) [@Rinai\_Vero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rinai_Vero)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/81 "2019-10-18T18:06:58Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You are not fighting your own war. According to you. My reasons for fighting this war are my own. Just like your reasons for fighting for Goonswarm are yours. This discussion has become beyond tiresome. I could just as easily reduce the meaning of all the vaunted independence of the nullsec blocs to paying sov bills to CONCORD. You think you’re so free? Stop paying for your iHubs. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/82 "2019-10-18T18:12:48Z")
Once again, you’re arguing against a thing I haven’t said. I never claimed our sovereignty wasn’t at CONCORD’s sufferance, or that we aren’t paying them rent for it. In fact, I’ve said just the opposite when I was publicly questioning why the hell we kept paying full price on those sov bills despite them reducing the services we were getting for those payments, during the Blackout. And, again, you’re fighting for your own reasons. The objectives you set are meaningful _to you_. But they’re not meaningful to the people controlling the warzone, the ones who can actually make the changes you want… and the changes you want are directly _counter_ to their objectives—the real objectives the CEWPA wars serve. But, you know, I _am_ sorry that being so completely wrong and unable to refute a single thing _actually being said_ is getting tiresome. Try being right for a change, or not throwing up straw men all over your posts. It might spice things up a little for you. ---
**Author:** ![Rinai\_Vero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rinai_vero/32/390870_2.png) [@Rinai\_Vero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rinai_Vero)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/83 "2019-10-18T18:20:25Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The objectives you set are meaningful _to you_ . But they’re not meaningful to the people controlling the warzone, the ones who can actually make the changes you want… and the changes you want are directly _counter_ to their objectives—the real objectives the CEWPA wars serve. And I have said over and over again in this thread that I don’t care about what their objectives are. That has literally been my entire point all along, that I am judging the contribution of mission runners according to my own standard, and I don’t care whether the “people controlling the warzone” agree with me or not. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136.md?page=5)