# Monument to Amarrian's "martyr" and elder fleet **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Tags:** event, amarr, minmatar\ **Created:** [November 27, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064 "2017-11-27T21:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/21 "2017-11-28T04:20:03Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > Sooooo, the fact that the Amarr held, and continue to hold, Minmatar as slaves did nothing to set back Amarr/Minmatar relations? I mean, we might as well make a full breast of it. Did I f\*\*\*ing say that? Read my post. It’s a _selection of individual examples_, not a definitive list. > [@](#): > > _… and a million other things …_ _Obviously_ slavery is a dead-weight on Amarr/Minmatar relations. I didn’t use it in a list of _steps backwards_ because it is hardly a new development. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/22 "2017-11-28T04:26:43Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > Did I f\*\*\*ing say that? Read my post. It’s a selection of individual examples, not a definitive list. Why yes, I did read your f\*\*\*ing post. Thank you very much. I am aware that it’s a list of examples, but the slavery one is a _pretty_ _damn_ _important_ one. So I added it. You’re welcome. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > Obviously slavery is a dead-weight on Amarr/Minmatar relations. I’m glad we agree. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > I didn’t use it in a list of steps backwards because it is hardly a new development. Yet it _is_ relevant, ergo I included it. I’m here to help. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 5:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/23 "2017-11-28T05:21:22Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > Sooooo, the fact that the Amarr held, and continue to hold, Minmatar as slaves did nothing to set back Amarr/Minmatar relations? I mean, we might as well make a full breast of it. They hold everyone who have violated Imperial law as slaves, not only Minmatar but also their own people, True Amarr. Using a blood line in argument to evade responsibility for their crimes is alogical. Minmatar aren’t special in any sort, and if they commit crime, they deserve get punishment as everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 5:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/24 "2017-11-28T05:28:33Z")
I wasn’t arguing for special treatment of Minmatar because they’re Minmatar, Ms Kim. I am saying that slavery of the Minmatar, for no other reason than being Minmatar, has and continues to be an impediment to Amarr/Minmatar relations. But yes, being justly convicted of a crime within the sovereignty of a nation makes one subject to punishment as their laws dictate. This is not what I’m disputing here. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 8:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/25 "2017-11-28T08:02:30Z")
I wouldn’t bother arguing with those who do not intend to debate in good faith, Samira. You’re more likely to have an aneurysm than make any headway with them, as you seem to be getting close to. They are far too caught up in their outrage at the problems to seriously consider any real solutions. Well, apart from kill Amarr until the problems stop on their own somehow. I have an idea to spur some real discussion on all of this, however. I believe I should put that idea into motion considering the upcoming occasion with these memorials being unveiled. In the meantime, I’ll just gracefully leave the thread with this quote I live by and see if any of the stooges can figure out who said it: > In times as treacherous as these, peace may seem a distant illusion, but we must never stop fighting to achieve and maintain it. Disruptive forces seek tirelessly to tear us apart and it is easy for the weak-minded to follow the flow. It is up to you, strong of mind and spirit, to hold high the torch of peace; to fall in a war of hate is a disgrace, to fall fighting for peace is a virtue that few can aspire to. But isn’t it better to die trying than to never try at all? ---
**Author:** ![Halcyon\_Ember](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/halcyon_ember/32/131702_2.png) [@Halcyon\_Ember](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Halcyon_Ember)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 8:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/26 "2017-11-28T08:49:15Z")
I see Caldari States biggest slavery apologist is making her contributions again. Halcyon Ember Queen of Chocolate The woman who doesn’t care how much you rant I’m not going anywhere just because you say so ---
**Author:** ![Umbre\_Fallenstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/umbre_fallenstar/32/260859_2.png) [@Umbre\_Fallenstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Umbre_Fallenstar)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 9:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/27 "2017-11-28T09:55:38Z")
I may not have been clear in my initial post. I’m not saying that the minmatars were right to kill people. I’m not saying that they should kill every Amarr. What I want to say is that their action was not more justified than the enslavement of an entire race. To respond to @Samira_Kernher. I agree with what you are saying essentially, but can all be explained by a “it would never have happened if they did not enslaved an entire race in the first place”. The invasion, the Starkmanir tribe, etc I’m not trying to justify their actions because, on my opinion, violence is a proof of weakness. I’m not against the reparations or the recognition of the dead of this time and yes, I think that a memorial matter because it is a symbol. PS I recon’ that I may not have choose the best words to describe my point of view. but to be clear, I’m not trying to defend the elder invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 9:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/28 "2017-11-28T09:58:21Z")
If it will look as soon to be established monument to DISCOVERY scientific research by CONCORD and capsuleers, then I think it will be rather a dumpster made from scrap lying around. Rogue drones will eventually dismantle it and use as building materials for their hive. Meh. Who cares. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/29 "2017-11-28T11:58:46Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > I wouldn’t bother arguing with those who do not intend to debate in good faith, Samira. You’re more likely to have an aneurysm than make any headway with them, as you seem to be getting close to. They are far too caught up in their outrage at the problems to seriously consider any real solutions. Well, apart from kill Amarr until the problems stop on their own somehow. Damn straight, Lieutenant Kernher. Don’t speak to those with _different_ perspectives or views. Do not learn. Do not broaden your view. Do not allow yourself and your beliefs to be challenged. Heed the strawman. Heed the obfuscation and the blatant lie. These are your friends. Let them become your truths. Be his loyal little _slave_. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/30 "2017-11-28T13:38:36Z")
I’m hard pressed to see how I’m not debating fairly. I’m not the one cherry picking only the examples that make one side seem blameless in the relationship between the Amarr and the Minmatar. I merely refocused on the main issue between the Amarr and Minmatar, which was excluded. Excluding it is to trivialize something that shouldn’t be. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > They are far too caught up in their outrage at the problems to seriously consider any real solutions. Speaking of faux outrage, real solutions have been proposed. The Amarr, as a whole, have rejected them to protect their culture. You’re outraged that real solutions may change your culture and you claim others are too outraged to propose real solutions. This is the height of irony, particularly as the Amarr feel they need impose their own culture and values on the Minmatar tribe members they continue to own. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > I’ll just gracefully leave the thread with this quote I live by and see if any of the stooges can figure out who said it Is it because you imagine that not being able to identify the source of the quote somehow invalidates any argument that might be brought up, or that it proves that those who are arguing with you are “stooges?” ---
**Author:** ![Umbre\_Fallenstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/umbre_fallenstar/32/260859_2.png) [@Umbre\_Fallenstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Umbre_Fallenstar)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/31 "2017-11-28T13:41:29Z")
I must agree with you, It’s my fault, in my initial message I was not “neutral” in my speech and I apologise for this. I would love to discuss a solution about those monuments that could comptent all sides. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_golden_serpent/32/79734_2.png) [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Golden_Serpent)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/32 "2017-11-28T14:48:51Z")
> Damn straight, Lieutenant Kernher. Don’t speak to those with different perspectives or views. Do not learn. Do not broaden your view. Do not allow yourself and your beliefs to be challenged. Heed the strawman. Heed the obfuscation and the blatant lie. These are your friends. Let them become your truths. Be his loyal little slave. The only place for the righteous is to be a slave to the Lord of Amarr. We are all slaves, of either our ambitions or our frail humanity, we choose to be slaves of the almighty lord of the entire universe. In doing so we are elevated above all by his hand. You try to make the righteous seem like they are weak and filthy, but it is only your mouth that is covered in feces and we can all see that you are the one who is weak. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/33 "2017-11-28T15:13:47Z")
> [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](#): > > You try to make the righteous seem like they are weak and filthy, but it is only your mouth that is covered in feces and we can all see that you are the one who is weak. All can see what you claim we should, or only those who already believe that you’re right? ---
**Author:** ![Lasairiona\_Raske](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lasairiona_raske/32/467893_2.png) [@Lasairiona\_Raske](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lasairiona_Raske)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/34 "2017-11-28T15:46:15Z")
Another walking cliche? How entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/35 "2017-11-28T16:00:52Z")
Kimlings and Kimling impersonators now. It’s remarkable how quickly these places turn to crap. ---
**Author:** ![Lasairiona\_Raske](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lasairiona_raske/32/467893_2.png) [@Lasairiona\_Raske](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lasairiona_Raske)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/36 "2017-11-28T16:02:20Z")
I agree with you there, Miz. Is this another day we need to mark down in the history books? ---
**Author:** ![Halcyon\_Ember](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/halcyon_ember/32/131702_2.png) [@Halcyon\_Ember](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Halcyon_Ember)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/37 "2017-11-28T16:10:14Z")
> [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](#): > > The only place for the righteous is to be a slave to the Lord of Amarr. It would be nice if people were allowed the choice of whether they wished to be righteous, rather than having such a choice forced upon them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_golden_serpent/32/79734_2.png) [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Golden_Serpent)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/38 "2017-11-28T16:14:32Z")
It would be nice if human beings did not constantly force the Lord of the Universe to force them to turn back to him with such drastic measures. They are infidels and they are not allowed any choice but to turn towards good and away from evil. ---
**Author:** ![Halcyon\_Ember](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/halcyon_ember/32/131702_2.png) [@Halcyon\_Ember](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Halcyon_Ember)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/39 "2017-11-28T16:15:18Z")
If he’s truly the lord of the universe, why do they need to be forced to return to his worship? ---
**Author:** ![Lasairiona\_Raske](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lasairiona_raske/32/467893_2.png) [@Lasairiona\_Raske](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lasairiona_Raske)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/40 "2017-11-28T16:15:58Z")
> [@Halcyon\_Ember](#): > > If he’s truly the lord of the universe, why do they need to be forced to return to his worship? Ohhhhhhh! She’s got you there. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064.md?page=3)