# Monument to Amarrian's "martyr" and elder fleet **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Tags:** event, amarr, minmatar\ **Created:** [November 27, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064 "2017-11-27T21:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Leopardess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_leopardess/32/71864_2.png) [@The\_Leopardess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Leopardess)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/61 "2017-11-28T21:17:36Z")
It is a well known fact that the Lord of your fathers rewards those who serve his kingdom with justice and righteousness with both power and money! Heretic! Would you have our holy Empress live in a hovel? You disgust me! This is Sabik heresy, I can smell it! ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/62 "2017-11-28T21:22:29Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > I am saying that slavery of the Minmatar, for no other reason than being Minmatar, has and continues to be an impediment to Amarr/Minmatar relations. I am afraid you are discussing a problem that resides only in your imagination, Ms. Ambrye. The Empire has slavery - but it isn’t defined by bloodlines, but by crimes and heresy. It means not only minmatars who are enslaved. And from the other side, not all minmatars in the Empire enslaved. The best example will be Ms. Samira Kernher. She is Imperial Minmatar, who definitely doesn’t look enslaved, and if I am not mistaken, she is a full-fledged free Amarr Citizen. As for the infamous illegal slavery raids - they are what they are, illegal slave raids, illegal both in the Empire and Republic. If you wish to fight them, that I completely understand, but you definitely shall not blame the Empire for them. After all, the largest illegal slavery cartel belongs actually to Minmatar Republic and called Angel Cartel. It would make more sense attacking Republic itself for the illegal slavery rather than the Empire. D. Kim, Strike Commander, State Protectorate, CMC, Caldari State ---
**Author:** ![Aergri\_Evingod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aergri_evingod/32/116437_2.png) [@Aergri\_Evingod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aergri_Evingod)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/63 "2017-11-28T21:40:11Z")
assumption pure assumption be honest it’s your ancestors and those they hurt your praying to. ---
**Author:** ![Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/charles_cambridge_schmidt/32/372217_2.png) [@Charles\_Cambridge\_Schmidt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Charles_Cambridge_Schmidt)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/64 "2017-11-28T22:02:26Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > Be his loyal little _slave._ Even when you yell so much, you still manage to make all your points monotone. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/65 "2017-11-28T22:04:31Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > The Empire has slavery - but it isn’t defined by bloodlines, but by crimes and heresy. But Ms Kim, they enslave children. I’m not clear on what crimes children should be enslaved for, or what heresy a child can commit. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > The best example will be Ms. Samira Kernher. She is Imperial Minmatar, who definitely doesn’t look enslaved, and if I am not mistaken, she is a full-fledged free Amarr Citizen. But is she, a full-fledged free Amarr citizen? I don’t mean just in name, or her status as a capsuleer. How do most other Amarrians treat her if they don’t know who she is? It’s one thing to be declared free, it’s another thing for society to accept it. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > As for the infamous illegal slavery raids - they are what they are, illegal slave raids, illegal both in the Empire and Republic. I agree Ms Kim. Illegal is illegal and I hope that the raids continue to be illegal. I honestly hope that the Empire is sincere in stopping the raids and isn’t implicit in turning a blind eye to such actions. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > If you wish to fight them, that I completely understand Are you giving me clearance to do so, Ms Kim? > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > the largest illegal slavery cartel belongs actually to Minmatar Republic and called Angel Cartel. Every major sector of space has pirate problems. If I’m not to blame the Amarr for illegal raids then I cannot blame the Republic for the Angel’s slave cartel though any form of slave trade is onerous to me. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/66 "2017-11-28T22:37:50Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > But Ms Kim, they enslave children. I’m not clear on what crimes children should be enslaved for, or what heresy a child can commit. I really don’t think that’s how it works. I might be mistaken, but I always thought the children were _born_ as slaves, not _enslaved_. > [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > But is she, a full-fledged free Amarr citizen? I don’t mean just in name, or her status as a capsuleer. How do most other Amarrians treat her if they don’t know who she is? It’s one thing to be declared free, it’s another thing for society to accept it. That’s you better ask her directly. What I do know, is that True Amarr are slightly xenophobic and put themselves above else nations in the Empire - you could see how it caused the failed “Purists” rebellion. There are Udorians, Ni-Kunni, Khanid. Moreover, Minmatars in the Empire have their own region - Ammatar mandate. And if you start treating their officials in there like slaves, you definitely won’t go far, ma’am. > [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > I agree Ms Kim. Illegal is illegal and I hope that the raids continue to be illegal. I honestly hope that the Empire is sincere in stopping the raids and isn’t implicit in turning a blind eye to such actions. I am more worried about Angel Cartel, especially since already pretty weak Republic wastes their resources on attacking innocent Amarr people instead of bringing real slavers from the Cartel to answer. > [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > Are you giving me clearance to do so, Ms Kim? I am neither Empire nor Republic official to give your clearance to operate in their territory. All laws have to be respected and maintained. If you wish to punish illegal slavers, I would recommend to start to work for the MIO of Amarr Empire. When I have served them myself, they were often sending me after illegal slavers and they were explaining me why they were illegal. That’s why I know that Imperials are allowed to enslave only criminals and PoWs. If you violate that - MIO will come after your soul or… will send another hired capsuleer to do their dirty work. ---
**Author:** ![Ascentior](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ascentior/32/266358_2.png) [@Ascentior](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ascentior)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/67 "2017-11-28T22:57:45Z")
> [@Umbre\_Fallenstar](#): > > I’m afraid that some “less diplomatic” ways could be taken by minmatars capsuleers. I think it would be more interesting if Minmatar Capsuleers did something _other_ than being “less diplomatic”. Essentially you’re saying that if we go ahead with our plans, stars will burn and wind will blow. ---
**Author:** ![Ascentior](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ascentior/32/266358_2.png) [@Ascentior](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ascentior)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/68 "2017-11-28T23:00:25Z")
> [@Umbre\_Fallenstar](#): > > my plea is to avoid further death. Right. Like the old “Nice family you have. It would be a shame if _something happened to them_. I’m just trying to look out for you.” ---
**Author:** ![Ascentior](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ascentior/32/266358_2.png) [@Ascentior](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ascentior)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/69 "2017-11-28T23:03:28Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > I think the concern is not that you’re morning your dead, but that the Amarr are using it to villainize the Minmatar. At least that’s what I got out of it, but I could be wrong. You might want to ask the OP. Considering his question was to the topic and not you, he DID ask the OP. It seems you jumped in with “I know you didn’t ask me, but here’s my opinion. I really don’t know though, maybe you should ask the person you actually asked instead of me.” ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/70 "2017-11-28T23:07:35Z")
> [@Ascentior](#): > > It seems you jumped in with “I know you didn’t ask me, but here’s my opinion. Not much unlike what you’re doing here with me? ---
**Author:** ![Umbre\_Fallenstar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/umbre_fallenstar/32/260859_2.png) [@Umbre\_Fallenstar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Umbre_Fallenstar)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/71 "2017-11-28T23:23:05Z")
> [@Ascentior](#): > > I think it would be more interesting if Minmatar Capsuleers did something other than being “less diplomatic” I hope that is what I’m trying to do ^^" > [@Ascentior](#): > > Right. Like the old “Nice family you have. It would be a shame if something happened to them. I’m just trying to look out for you.” humm… what? no, it’s not the case, and if what’s people thought reading my message I’m worried ^^" No, I added this because when I talked about the monuments to other minmatars, they quickly got to the " why not just shoot the memorials?" and that’s what I DON’T want ^^" ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/72 "2017-11-28T23:29:29Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > I really don’t think that’s how it works. I might be mistaken, but I always thought the children were born as slaves, not enslaved. I promise to look into this more closely, Ms Kim. Either way I’m not comfortable with children being slaves. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > That’s you better ask her directly. Fair point, Ms Kim. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/73 "2017-11-29T05:07:08Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > > [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > > > > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > > > > > The Empire has slavery - but it isn’t defined by bloodlines, but by crimes and heresy. > > > > But Ms Kim, they enslave children. I’m not clear on what crimes children should be enslaved for, or what heresy a child can commit. > > I really don’t think that’s how it works. I might be mistaken, but I always thought the children were born as slaves, not enslaved. Both happen. Being born a slave is more common considering the number of slaves, but children being enslaved also occurs (typically through the enslavement of a criminal’s family as part of their sentencing). Children as slaves, either enslaved in their lifetime or born into it, is generally a matter of association. Someone you’re related to did something for which the consequence is their family being enslaved, or you’re born into a lineage that is considered to still be working off the crimes committed by your ancestors (in most cases, that crime is the original apostasy). It is defined by crimes _and_ bloodlines. Because Amarr attaches crimes to bloodlines. > [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > > > The best example will be Ms. Samira Kernher. She is Imperial Minmatar, who definitely doesn’t look enslaved, and if I am not mistaken, she is a full-fledged free Amarr Citizen. > > But is she, a full-fledged free Amarr citizen? I don’t mean just in name, or her status as a capsuleer. How do most other Amarrians treat her if they don’t know who she is? It’s one thing to be declared free, it’s another thing for society to accept it. I was formally emancipated and am legally a free citizen. How other people choose to view me has no effect on my legal status. ---
**Author:** ![Tannia\_Ambrye](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tannia_ambrye/32/410653_2.png) [@Tannia\_Ambrye](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tannia_Ambrye)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 5:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/74 "2017-11-29T05:17:05Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > I was formally emancipated and am legally a free citizen. How other people choose to view me has no effect on my legal status. Thank you for volunteering that information Ms Kernher. I’ll remember to ask next time rather than make assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Halcyon\_Ember](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/halcyon_ember/32/131702_2.png) [@Halcyon\_Ember](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Halcyon_Ember)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/75 "2017-11-29T09:07:08Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > but I always thought the children were born as slaves, Yeah, this is totally OK. ---
**Author:** ![Halcyon\_Ember](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/halcyon_ember/32/131702_2.png) [@Halcyon\_Ember](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Halcyon_Ember)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 9:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/76 "2017-11-29T09:09:51Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > Because Amarr attaches crimes to bloodlines. And yet they complain when people tarnish them all with the same brush. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve complained myself. It’s very upsetting for me to be lumped in with every Amarrian who thinks slavery is the best thing ever, however if your society is enslaving children or maintaining the status of children as slaves for something people who are related to them have done, complaining that people view you in a negative light because of the actions of other Amarr is rather amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/77 "2017-12-03T03:12:43Z")
> [@Tannia\_Ambrye](#): > > I promise to look into this more closely, Ms Kim. Either way I’m not comfortable with children being slaves. I am not comfortable with children being enslaved - it will be drop of their status (as punishment) for crimes they didn’t commit. But if they were born in slavery, that is fine - it’s just for them a social environment they will be grown in. In any way, my comfort or lack thereof neither is nor should be guidance or advise of any form to the Empire how to sort their internal affairs. D.Kim, Strike Cmdr., SPROT, CMC, Caldari State ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/monument-to-amarrians-martyr-and-elder-fleet/42064/78 "2018-03-03T03:12:47Z")
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