# Negative/toxic culture towards new players **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2024, 8:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377 "2024-09-02T20:50:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 11:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/323 "2024-09-21T11:56:14Z")
People have this mistaken idea that a pvp fight starts when one scrams or shoots the other. The fight actually started way earlier all the way back to realising, accepting and adjusting to the fact that ganks DO happen and that you are NOT the main character in this game (this is going to be difficult for quite a few people). The second you accept that ganks happen, that other people can affect your gameplay and you put in a little bit of effort into learning how to lower the risk of it happening (mostly by not having silly cargo or modules fitted and by having enough EHP), it’s almost not a problem any more. And if you then you actually (and actively) play the game instead of being (semi) afk fapping to hentai you will not have any issues at all. It’s really just Darwinism and everyone has the ability to avoid these issues but it does take a bit of effort. Equality of opportunity, NOT equality of outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 12:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/324 "2024-09-21T12:12:56Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > You don’t know what you are talking about. Pulls facts out of his ARSE ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 12:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/325 "2024-09-21T12:15:29Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Thousands of ppl travel even through the most camped hotspots of Uedama and Sivala and are _not_ ganked. When my Wrecking Machine alt moves expensive ships through Uedama, which has happened often as WM is sort of nomadic, I always do these things… 1. Scout ahead. It is not hard to see if there are 25 gankers in Uedama or none at all. 2. Check killboard…see where the latest ganks have occurred. Also one can use the map that says ’ X number of ships killed in past hour’. 3. Replace some of low slot DPS or other modules with inertial stabilisers. I’m not worried about shooting back ( and some of my ships can’t )…only about getting through as fast as possible. 4. Know who the ganker scouts usually are. They are often THE sign that gankers are up ahead. 5. Lastly, if I ever do get ganked, I will simply type ‘good fight’ and have a nice chat with the gankers about how they finally got me. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 12:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/326 "2024-09-21T12:16:33Z")
> [@Eloken\_Toralen](#): > > Safety settings other than green in high sec instantly flag as suspect. Nooooo how can use my filament then ? And how does it change if a suicide ganker changes safety just before engaging in a criminal action ? You need at the very least a timer between the moment you change safety, and the moment it allows you to engage, while giving you suspect and weapon timer in the meanwhile. But they will do it in a safe, warping fleet from safe to safe until the timers wear off. > [@Eloken\_Toralen](#): > > Non consensual PVP always resets a positive security status to zero, rather than decrementing it. preventing people from docking/swapping ship/cloning/respawning in a system if their security status is too low. Just like it is in NS (except for swapping ships) > [@Zaera\_Keena](#): > > How do you alpha strike a ship that isn’t there? Oh wait, that is counterplay. That’s not counterplay. That’s not playing the game. When your sole “choice” in the game is to not play the game, you know there is a problem. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > What’s more…the cat and mouse of avoiding being ganked is FUN, not ‘harassment’. of course, if you are only considering the cat’s opinion and ignoring the mouses’ because they “lack functional brain”. That’s a cyclic, so stupid, argument. > [@Syzygium](#): > > He can see exactly who is with him in the system, he can use the DScan to see who is nearby Only if he’s a bot. > [@Syzygium](#): > > Thousands of ppl travel even through the most camped hotspots of Uedama and Sivala and are _not_ ganked. I often travel through abhazon without getting ganked (yet) . Does not mean it’s insignificant, only that I can tank SB and points. > [@Syzygium](#): > > Thousands are undocking from Jita or Amarr and are _never_ ganked. Yeah, because there are choices here. You _can_ create insta dock/undock. > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > It’s meaningful to me, for it bears costs which are not insignificant. Beware of generalising when your point is actually personal and specific. Financial costs are taken into account. That’s what you have accountants for. The costs ARE insignificant, because the game allows to make them as such. Just because they are not for you, does not mean they are not for people who optimize with them. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > They should not have any impact on gameplay aside from stopping you from taking actions that lead to suspect or criminal flags. And using filaments. > [@Aisha\_Katalen](#): > > People have this mistaken idea that a pvp fight starts when one scrams or shoots the other. The fight actually started way earlier all the way back to realising, accepting and adjusting to the fact that ganks DO happen and that you are NOT the main character in this game (this is going to be difficult for quite a few people). No, the fight starts when people start shooting. Because if nobody starts shooting, there is no fight, just random catalysts warping and exploding for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 12:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/327 "2024-09-21T12:21:30Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > if I ever do get ganked No chance, you have a fast align **gnosis**. But anything is possible, even @Githany_Red got ganked, by herself ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/e/a/1/ea1536475fac8d1d9a996aad42bc98529151eb63.png) and then we have those batshit crazy **Frostpackers** ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/0/6/8/06825faf342bd523fe133c6f64d24125cb836344.png) ---
**Author:** ![Akkar\_Kardashev](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/akkar_kardashev/32/514189_2.png) [@Akkar\_Kardashev](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Akkar_Kardashev)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 12:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/328 "2024-09-21T12:27:29Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Replace some of low slot DPS or other modules with inertial stabilisers. I’m not worried about shooting back ( and some of my ships can’t )…only about getting through as fast as possible. This is the solid advice. I do nothing else on this list. Everything I have in my nullsec pocket went through Uedama, yet I’ve never died there. Being able to get in and get out fast is everything you need. No need for ruining people’s filament joy, or making people randomly a suspect without their knowledge, or babying and crying on the forums. Inertial Stabilisers. They’re cheap too. Want to boost that? Low Friction Nozzle Joints in your rig slots. Mix those with Hyperspatial Velocity Optimisers for faster warp. Done. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 12:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/329 "2024-09-21T12:30:49Z")
> [@Zaera\_Keena](#): > > No chance, you have a fast align **gnosis**. Oh, that was some time ago. Though it is still under 4 seconds, I replaced the fast align with fast locking…an impressive signature resolution of 1100mm, vital for fast locking suspects. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 12:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/330 "2024-09-21T12:41:00Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > of course, if you are only considering the cat’s opinion and ignoring the mouses’ No, I was expressly stating the mouse’s eye viewpoint. Avoiding the cat is fun. The risk in Eve is half the fun ! You don’t _have_ to be a ‘victim’…you can outsmart the cat. What’s not to enjoy ?? ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/331 "2024-09-21T13:29:42Z")
**CAT** ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/b/4/0/b4048e3edc5c92cec6f4a951cba762fa11debc85.jpeg) **MOUSE** ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/0/8/b/08b432895a7bd672e4c937d8662b9abedb617306.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 2:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/332 "2024-09-21T14:40:35Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > No, I was expressly stating the mouse’s eye viewpoint. Avoiding the cat is fun. No, it’s not. I was also as the mouse, and did not lose a single ship. It was not fun. Because there was nothing to gain from it. ---
**Author:** ![Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/geo_eclipse_oksaras/32/500781_2.png) [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/333 "2024-09-21T14:52:45Z")
I think its fair to say that those who seem to be “toxic” ie gankers, hardcore players etc. Are less toxic than those who try to manipulate new players “SiCo” and many other “newbie” corps that actually do a disservice to new players, that is more toxic especially since most gankers try to help who they ganked All of us who played for years knows we need new players to keep eve going. The problem isnt always the vets, a lot of toxicity comes from new players cause EVE isn’t like any other MMO ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 3:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/334 "2024-09-21T15:02:31Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > I was also as the mouse, and did not lose a single ship. Then what are you whining about ? I cannot help but notice that the biggest whiners on the forum are always invoking the _imagined_ and often totally fabricated experience of other people. Eve would be a far better place if people stopped being gossipy busy-bodies and focused on what they themselves have direct experience of. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 3:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/335 "2024-09-21T15:17:08Z")
> [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Then what are you whining about ? If you were not a butt hurt, then what are you crying about ? ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 3:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/336 "2024-09-21T15:18:12Z")
Deary…I am pixels in space. I don’t have a butt to get hurt. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 3:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/337 "2024-09-21T15:18:53Z")
Still, you are making personal attacks to avoid the discussion. You don’t even read the arguments. Can you actually ? Or is your brain too rotten to be able to process non-simplistic idea ? Or does the inability to even consider disagreeing opinions comes as a package with being a butt hurt ? Don’t bother answering, those are rethorical questions. What they ask is not what they mean. Just like yours. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/338 "2024-09-21T15:24:52Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > I was also as the mouse, You still are > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > and did not lose a single ship Lies > [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > there was nothing to gain from it. your loot. ---
**Author:** ![Gloria\_Exercitus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloria_exercitus/32/509735_2.png) [@Gloria\_Exercitus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gloria_Exercitus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/339 "2024-09-21T15:26:49Z")
> [@stefnia\_Freir](#): > > You don’t even read the arguments. I’d read the arguments if there _were_ any ! Try making a point that’s actually true. People with far more experience than me have refuted most of yours. ---
**Author:** ![Eloken\_Toralen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eloken_toralen/32/401714_2.png) [@Eloken\_Toralen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eloken_Toralen)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/340 "2024-09-21T15:45:56Z")
> [@Akkar\_Kardashev](#): > > When people want rules and regulations that encroach on others for no reason, that annoys people. Why? Alpha accounts can’t go red safety due to player abusing them for ganking. Its a shame it took CCP several years to change this, after being told day one that this was 100% going to happen. > [@Akkar\_Kardashev](#): > > I fly with safety off all the time and have zero plans to change that. _my cold dead hands_ etc. There is no reason to go beyond yellow safety in high security space. This kind of attitude is exactly why incursion groups like WTM have to do a speech when anyone joins to turn their safety green, because there is some dimwit with it on red all the time. > [@Akkar\_Kardashev](#): > > I am against additional rules and punishments for gankers on the basis that your insane dragnet will catch me and many other players who aren’t even the target of your blunt instrument; just passersby getting ■■■■■■ because there are froots nearby. Yellow safety. In high security space this is either pinching from cans or doing sus things in low security space, since people now get a swift visit from CONCORD if they are trying to do neutral logi, which I think happens even with yellow safety set? > [@Akkar\_Kardashev](#): > > No. Stop it. Neither one has anything to do with ganking. > [@Zaera\_Keena](#): > > Oh wait, that is counterplay. If the only way to win is to not be there, people leave the game. This is the reason wars were changed. It might have taken over a decade, eventually CCP chose the long term health of the game over the short term special interests that were making the ecosystem unviable. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > You aren’t making an ‘argument’ in the first place. You’re just whining about something that has been an established part of the game for years. Have you considered playing Farmville instead ? See previous paragraph relating to wars. Some mechanics take a long time to be recognised as broken, especially when its a vocal minority seeking to maintain the status quo. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > No they don’t. I’ve been a ganker and the process is generally very much _opportunistic_. For most gank fleets there is no ’ we are going to gank player X at 14.53 on Saturday afternoon '. Please. Nobody else can set safety to red but yourself, and no one else can push F1 either. Periphery details on times and dates is pure deflection. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Only the really large ganks involving maybe 20-25 gankers are planned out, often with advance knowledge of cargo and route. It could be argued that operations of that size have to be planned out due to the difficulty, rather than ‘ganking’ is hard. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > And those large fleets are not ganking noobs in Ventures but billions of ISK hauls or ships. Then what is the problem of scaling the consequences with the target value? Is it really going to be that much of an impact to have to stop blowing up t1 industrialists for a few days in order to take down that a juicy 8 bill full cargo expander fit freighter ? > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > The average security loss for a gank is around 0.17 points, which means 3 ganks and you’ve lost 0.5 points. From a full 5.0 sec status, that is still 30 ganks. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > Recovering those 0.5 points costs around 40m ISK in clone soldier tags plus a 6m ISK fee. Considering the whipping boy of choice is a retriever, on the 3rd gank the amount of cost to recover sec status is less than the losses inflicted, even at today’s inflated prices. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > This is actually more than the cost of the Catalysts that did the ganking and means _the average gank costs the ganker around 23m ISK per gank_. Its not the cost of the loss, its the cost for the damage inflicted. Trading a few cheap destroyers to take down several exhumers is an exchange any FC would gladly take. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > And in fact, given that a larger mining ship may be 80-90m ISK you can see that the 3 or 4 gankers required to gank it are barely making any profit even if the loot fairy is kind. There was a Conan the Barbarian game years ago that had a very rough launch. A number of people complained that they got endless loading screen after loading screen getting into the server. Turned out that the people who got onto the server early were just hanging around the spawn point and beating players to death as they spawned in, causing the server to send them back to the loading screen. This happened for hours, with some groups creating a ad hoc roster to ensure people did not make it off the beach. As a new player just spawning in they had nothing, but the people who were there first were not interested in gold, they just wanted to eliminate anyone outside of the group from getting a foothold. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > It really isn’t actually all that hard to avoid being ganked. Yes, apparently all one has to do is never leave station. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > What’s more…the cat and mouse of avoiding being ganked is FUN, not ‘harassment’. I am reminded of a children’s book series on learning to read. “See Jane throw stones” “See Dick throw stones” “It is fun to Jane and Dick” “But not to the Riot Police” > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > t is precisely the risk that makes the game worth playing. Nothing stopping this from happening out in null or low security space, though for the simple fact in those areas people get to shoot first. > [@Gloria\_Exercitus](#): > > You consent to PvP by the act of undocking. That _is_ your consent. If you don’t like that, then please do go play Farmville instead as you will clearly be much more at home there, and leave Eve for the grown ups. This is not true. Try ganking or even scamming people in a starter system and see how long before the ban rolls in. > [@Syzygium](#): > > He can use a fit and ship that makes him an _extremly_ uninteresting target. This is like saying scarcity has not impact because one can always just fly a corvette. > [@Syzygium](#): > > You could completely forbid ganking or tweak ganking or buff ganking and for the overhwhelming majority of the players exactly _nothing_ would change. Then why argue against changes with such protestation? > [@Syzygium](#): > > The “problem” is completely blown out of proportion. The ‘problem’ is EVE needs to be more than a bunch of bots with passive targets that feed ship scans into market check sites that makes a ding sound when a target is found. > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > It’s meaningful to me, for it bears costs which are not insignificant. Do not fly that which you cannot afford to loose? or If you don’t want to do the time, don’t do the crime? > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > Are you suggesting that low security status should be permanent, irreparable? It should not be something that the rich can ignore by waving their wallets around. > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > This won’t affect gankers but may have consequences for other players, as mentioned above. Gankers who are about to do the wrong thing can be stopped if suspect. Players who are suspect, will have to be more careful when stealing from cans and molesting lost mobile tractor units. > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > Again, this will have no effect on gankers, who often operate at this level or just/far below it. One well overdue change were penalties to players with very low security status. They cannot cloak, cannot tether, cannot dock in a station, if their status is really bad CONCORD will blow them up the second they get into a ship. It is a fairly safe assumption that this does have an effect on gankers, it was just silly to see Aaaaaargh in their thrasher sitting on the Perimeter gate all day flashing red with a -10 status. > [@Sasha\_Nemtsov](#): > > No, Eloken, it does not. But one really ought to think about one’s game-changing suggestions before one seeks to foist them upon the weary denizens of GD. In the same way CCP foisted mechanics that allow the Amarr ↔ Jita route to be cut by dropping the security status of key chokepoint systems? High security space can be a bubble wrapped theme park for all I care, the trade off of it being safer way always that it rewarded less. October and November are all about Nullsov 2.0, if ganking was stopped tomorrow, there is plenty of space out that nobody is using where gankers can mug people all day long without a single CONCORD to bother them. ---
**Author:** ![ISD\_Kai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isd_kai/32/402812_2.png) [@ISD\_Kai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ISD_Kai)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/341 "2024-09-21T15:48:05Z")
I think this thread has gone on for a sufficient duration. Closing this thread. ---
**Author:** ![ISD\_Kai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/isd_kai/32/402812_2.png) [@ISD\_Kai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/ISD_Kai)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/negative-toxic-culture-towards-new-players/460377/342 "2024-09-21T15:48:08Z")
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