# New Edencom vorton weapons tweak **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [June 26, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639 "2020-06-26T19:04:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Elzon1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elzon1/32/255919_2.png) [@Elzon1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elzon1)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2020, 3:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/41 "2020-06-28T03:33:42Z")
> [@Archer\_en\_Tilavine](#): > > This is one of the greatest falsehoods in all of EVE. Some of the poorest duelists make for the greatest fleet companions as combatants, and spamming a fleet full of fantastic duelists can all but guarantee failure in many cases. Any good FC should know this. This has nothing to do with player skill and everything to do with the ship’s base capabilities. If the **ship** can’t survive in a 1v1 situation (aside from ships like logistics) it’s not going to do well in an fleet fight. This is the base reality. This is not a philosophical debate. > [@Archer\_en\_Tilavine](#): > > > [@Elzon1](#): > > > > However, once the drone ship’s drones are down they tend to have a secondary weapon system as well and that secondary weapon system would most likely out dps the vorton projector from the edencom ship. > > This is assuming a more-or-less 1v1 situation, which is a situation an EDENCOM ship is not designed for _ **nor should be designed around.** _ It needs to be able to be a competitive ship in normal combat or it’s going to be quickly countered and alpha’d off the field in an actual fleet fight. As it stands the edencom ships will not accomplish their stated goal nor ever function in that capacity for a significant amount of time due to being easily exploitable. With the modifications I suggest (or something close to them) they will in fact accomplish their stated goal forcing the average fleet to remain more dispersed to diminish the lingering threat from the edencom ships. Without these changes the current fleet meta will not change and the edencom ships will be wasted development time. Whenever a fleet sees these incoming all they have to do is quickly disperse and alpha them down due to their handicapped dps. The fleet will once again go back to being a brainless anchor ball once the edencom ships are off the field. With my changes the edencom ships cannot be easily exploited and fleets will have to remain dispersed as standard operating procedure. In other words if these new edencom ships accomplish their stated goal then they will rarely actually be used to accomplish their stated goal due to the changing fleet meta. They will only see sparse opportunities to shoot tightly grouped ships once the meta changes. These ships will require considerable skill to use them properly if they accomplish their goal. > [@Archer\_en\_Tilavine](#): > > > [@Elzon1](#): > > > > It’s unlikely an edencom ship will go one on one with a carrier > > It’s unlikely an EDENCOM ship will go 1v1 with any ship, and there’s nothing wrong with that. If it can’t go 1v1 it won’t ever be in a fleet fight it’s just that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Elzon1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elzon1/32/255919_2.png) [@Elzon1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elzon1)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2020, 5:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/42 "2020-06-28T05:25:22Z")
> [@DragoFire](#): > > > Vorton Arc Guidance; > > > > Skill in tuning wave-guides of ship-based Arcing Vorton Projectors to improve strikes on fast-moving targets. > > > > 5% bonus to Vorton Projector explosion radius and explosion velocity per skill level. > > As noted in post it has the ability with skills to get fast movers. Yes they can as some ship fits move faster than others and so you need to account for that which that skill accomplishes. This weapon system isn’t specifically meant to combat smaller faster moving ships as it’s meant to reduce cohesion of an enemy fleet by forcing them to separate from each other to reduce the effects from edencom ships. But this will not happen for any significant amount of time as when the enemy fleet does disperse the edencom ship’s dps is effectively handicapped forcing them to become uncompetitive in terms of dps. This allows the enemy fleet to quickly dispatch the edencom ships with minimal losses. If the edencom ships had competitive standard dps with non-arcing ammo they would still pose as much a threat as most any other ship in regular combat making them competitive and less of an easy target. Once the edencom ships spot enemy ships packed close enough together it could switch over to arcing ammo to do more overall damage to the enemy fleet. However, non-arcing ammo for this weapon system doesn’t exist which prevents these ships from being used in regular competitive fleet combat. They need to do competitive dps under normal circumstances and enhanced dps with arcing ammo when the opportunity of close packed enemy ships presents itself. > [@DragoFire](#): > > > [@Elzon1](#): > > > > Perhaps if the edencom ship can kill the drones fast enough then it may be able to eliminate a drone ship’s main weapon even though it will suffer significant damage as it attempts to do so. However, once the drone ship’s drones are down they tend to have a secondary weapon system as well and that secondary weapon system would most likely out dps the vorton projector from the edencom ship. So long as the drone ship’s secondary weapon system can break the edencom ship’s tank then the drone ship will win the fight so long as the tank of the drone ship and the edencom ship were comparable at the beginning. > > And hence **Vorton Projection Operation** has been added to increase the fire rate of the turrets, so with core turret skill **Rapid Firing** and **Gunnery** , at lvl5 on all that’s **+40% bonus to ROF** before module bonuses from the **Vorton Tuning Systems**. > That’s better than what the **Trig Disintegrators** are capable of. An edencom Thunder child (battleship) only does about 310 dps against a single target. If it’s up against another battleship that dps can be easily tanked. > [@DragoFire](#): > > > [@Elzon1](#): > > > > It’s unlikely an edencom ship will go one on one with a carrier as there would be plenty of time for a support fleet to arrive. Also, the single target dps of a vorton projector in it’s current state wouldn’t break the tank of the average carrier. > > No real need for the Vorton Projector to break the carrier tank, just defanging a carrier is the key here, the support fleet and other DPS will have less to worry about, once the fighters and bombers of the carrier have been killed. Fighters are in squadrons and act as a single target only enabling a Thunderchild to do around 310 dps to a squadron of fighters or up to 930 dps if he somehow manages to get them grouped close together. Using a Nidhouggur with Templar II’s the 3 squadrons can output 2790 dps. A Thunderchild can neither survive nor defang a carrier. ---
**Author:** ![Elzon1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elzon1/32/255919_2.png) [@Elzon1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elzon1)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2020, 5:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/43 "2020-06-28T05:34:43Z")
> [@Big\_Country\_Boy](#): > > Actually kinda like them for a solo mission platform, but ammunition cost will have to come down to make them usable long term for mission running. They mostly shine in high rat density missions, and I’m fine with that fringe use. Really they are going to be most useful for high density anything if you skill them and keep range. Indeed and that niche is about all they’re good for right now. An enemy fleet would wipe edencom ships off the field rather quickly if they separate temporarily. However, if CCP gives edencom ships non-arcing ammo with competitive dps and a way for the arcing ammo damage to avoid being sucked up by drones/jet cans then that will solve the major problems with edencom ships. ---
**Author:** ![DragoFire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dragofire/32/257926_2.png) [@DragoFire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DragoFire)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2020, 9:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/44 "2020-06-28T09:19:38Z")
> [@Elzon1](#): > > However, if CCP gives edencom ships non-arcing ammo with competitive dps and a way for the arcing ammo damage to avoid being sucked up by drones/jet cans then that will solve the major problems with edencom ships. God you have to push the whole Single target idea, you fail to hear anyone else that points out the fact CCP made these ships to work as a fleet ship primary, and yes could be used solo if skills and fitted correctly. Get out of your mindset and actually think about these ships in the role that have been designed for, It’s like Trig ships, they are only really good if you maintain one target lock with the turret until it’s dead, doing otherwise kills the whole point of using disintegrators. The same is true with Vorton Projectors, you maintain focus on the target taking the most damage from the lighting attack. And yes you need to make sure you watch your targets, by that a ship, station or drone, you need to shift primary target to take advantage of this, failing to do so means you’ll lose that window of following through on the damage done. There’s a youtube video that shows this in action before the last patch that boosted these turrets, where a single ship faces off against three trig ships and wins. [PVE God](https://youtu.be/VuAwmwLzdzk) If you had your way Trig Disintegrator would end up with ammo that does the damage profile of the Vorton ammo, and imagine the complete imbalance that would happen with player that have high Trig turret skills, officer fits and high-grade Trig implants. Think about this a Nergal with make skills will have a max damage of 250%, with implants that increases to almost 400%, even with damage split like the Vorton, that’s a frigate doing near Battleship damage across five targets instead of focused on a single target. This is the reason the Vorton is around to cause damage to weak resistances _(EM to shield, and Kin to Armour)_ across multiple targets, and it has the advantage of once a players see’s the shield drop on one of the five targets they switch the the Kin focused damage ammo to push the damage home on the armour. If you can’t manage ammo changing you should go back to Amarr ships or missiles. These ships require ammo and target management to get the full benefit from them. ---
**Author:** ![Brun\_Warbear](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brun_warbear/32/380353_2.png) [@Brun\_Warbear](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brun_Warbear)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2020, 10:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/45 "2020-06-28T10:02:57Z")
> [@Elzon1](#): > > If it can’t go 1v1 it won’t ever be in a fleet fight it’s just that simple. This is not even wrong. > **[Not even wrong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong)** > > "Not even wrong" is a phrase often used to describe pseudoscience or bad science. It describes an argument or explanation that purports to be scientific but uses faulty reasoning or speculative premises, which can be neither affirmed nor denied and thus cannot be discussed rigorously and scientifically. The phrase "not even wrong" is synonymous with "unfalsifiable". > The phrase is generally attributed to the theoretical physicist Wolfgang Pauli, who was known for his colorful objections to incor... ---
**Author:** ![James\_Baboli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_baboli/32/408702_2.png) [@James\_Baboli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Baboli)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/46 "2020-06-28T13:03:10Z")
> [@DragoFire](#): > > This clearly shows CCP designed these weapons to target fast moving swarm fleets. > > As i see it you never go 1vs1 as your DPS won’t be great against a single ship, but if you’re against a drone ship you’ll be at an advantage as you’ll be killing drones faster and kill the drone ships primary weapon system. If they designed them for such, the screwed up, because application on the targets so named is very mediocre, and so you will generally get more use out of a firewall fit combat battlecruiser. > [@DragoFire](#): > > No real need for the Vorton Projector to break the carrier tank, just defanging a carrier is the key here, the support fleet and other DPS will have less to worry about, once the fighters and bombers of the carrier have been killed. The DPS output of these is below what can reasonably be obtained with an oldschool firewall fit combat battlecruiser, with the additional problem of only hitting a maximum of 5 things AND the posibility that some of those 5 things will be friendly, just like a poorly positioned smartbomb. They’ll be great for nuking friendly tackle though. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Country\_Boy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/big_country_boy/32/282041_2.png) [@Big\_Country\_Boy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Big_Country_Boy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/47 "2020-06-28T16:07:53Z")
I fail to see any real issues when used as designed. Yes you will nuke friendly tackle in range if they are there. At the same time though, I have a feeling they will find a place in a lot of pve, large swarm pvp activities. They would make a great combo for countering ceptor fleets paired with interdictors i think. ---
**Author:** ![DragoFire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dragofire/32/257926_2.png) [@DragoFire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DragoFire)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/48 "2020-06-28T18:24:35Z")
and a Smartbomb doesn’t do the same?? at least the Vorton projector allows a player to to select the point of first hit and then it’s biggest signature as the next target it hits and so on till 5 hits have been done. a smartbomb **just damages everything** within blast radius. so how different is vorton projector to a smartbomb? ---
**Author:** ![James\_Baboli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_baboli/32/408702_2.png) [@James\_Baboli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Baboli)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/49 "2020-06-28T18:27:15Z")
It’s worse in every usage case except the “cannot catch the hostile fleet, nor get a warp in on them either” case. ---
**Author:** ![Elzon1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elzon1/32/255919_2.png) [@Elzon1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elzon1)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/50 "2020-06-29T12:38:58Z")
> [@DragoFire](#): > > The same is true with Vorton Projectors, you maintain focus on the target taking the most damage from the lighting attack. And yes you need to make sure you watch your targets, by that a ship, station or drone, you need to shift primary target to take advantage of this, failing to do so means you’ll lose that window of following through on the damage done. > > There’s a youtube video that shows this in action before the last patch that boosted these turrets, where a single ship faces off against three trig ships and wins. > > [PVE God](https://youtu.be/VuAwmwLzdzk) Lol, you should watch the video again. It took 5.5 minutes before a single NPC frigate went down. The video is showing how pathetic these ships are against trigs. The video even has that laughing latino meme playing in the background (in remix fashion) driving in how pathetic the new ships are. That ship certainly didn’t win against the trigs. That ship most likely didn’t survive that filament. > [@DragoFire](#): > > God you have to push the whole Single target idea, you fail to hear anyone else that points out the fact CCP made these ships to work as a fleet ship primary, and yes could be used solo if skills and fitted correctly. Yes I’m hearing all arguments, but these ships will fail to accomplish their stated objective without my suggested changes or something similar. Also, these ships can’t solo any other ship of a similar size (frig vs frig, cruiser vs cruiser, Battleshp vs Battleship). A Thunderchild might even fall to a properly fit Battlecruiser since it’s dps is so low against a single target. > [@DragoFire](#): > > If you had your way Trig Disintegrator would end up with ammo that does the damage profile of the Vorton ammo, and imagine the complete imbalance that would happen with player that have high Trig turret skills, officer fits and high-grade Trig implants. > Think about this a Nergal with make skills will have a max damage of 250%, with implants that increases to almost 400%, even with damage split like the Vorton, that’s a frigate doing near Battleship damage across five targets instead of focused on a single target. > > This is the reason the Vorton is around to cause damage to weak resistances _(EM to shield, and Kin to Armour)_ across multiple targets, and it has the advantage of once a players see’s the shield drop on one of the five targets they switch the the Kin focused damage ammo to push the damage home on the armour. > > If you can’t manage ammo changing you should go back to Amarr ships or missiles. > > These ships require ammo and target management to get the full benefit from them. I’m not suggesting any changes to trigs as they are working as intended and are fairly good in fleet fights. They’re decent solo ships and good fleet ships. And I’m not suggesting normal ship level dps be applied to vorton arcs as what I’m suggesting is that there be a different mode or ammo in which the dps is comparable to a ship of the same size while **NOT BEING ABLE TO ARC**. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 2:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/51 "2020-06-29T14:29:25Z")
> [@Elzon1](#): > > 1v1 is a litmus test for a ship’s fleet worthiness Balancing for 1v1 is the best way to ■■■■ up a game. Why do you think the stupid ECM nerf happened? Go back to WoW. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Country\_Boy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/big_country_boy/32/282041_2.png) [@Big\_Country\_Boy](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Big_Country_Boy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/52 "2020-06-29T16:14:49Z")
Really if a fleet fight comes down to how well you 1v1, that’s not a fleet, it’s a cluster ■■■■, and you need a new FC ---
**Author:** ![DragoFire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dragofire/32/257926_2.png) [@DragoFire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DragoFire)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/53 "2020-06-29T18:29:22Z")
> [@Elzon1](#): > > Lol, you should watch the video again. That video use made before the damage increased in the last patch. The damage for the small seems about right now. Tested it few times in C1 combat sites, hits ranged between 35-198hp, but you do really need to manage your primary target to get the best possible chain effect, and ammo to push the best possible damage output. You can’t leave it on a single target as chances are it’ll move out of chain arc distance and you won"t get arcing to other targets. ---
**Author:** ![DragoFire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dragofire/32/257926_2.png) [@DragoFire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DragoFire)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/54 "2020-06-29T18:44:36Z")
> [@Elzon1](#): > > **I’m not suggesting any changes to trigs as they are working as intended and are fairly good in fleet fights.** They’re decent solo ships and good fleet ships. And I’m not suggesting normal ship level dps be applied to vorton arcs as what I’m suggesting is that there be a different mode or ammo in which the dps is comparable to a ship of the same size while **NOT BEING ABLE TO ARC**. Then why are you trying to change the **Vorton Projector** , it’s been designed this way. I personally won’t use the Edencom ships solo, as i know they’re not meet to be flown without fleet support. This may change later on once you get higher skills and running T2 modules for them. As we know CCP has a habit of putting something out there and changing it a few months later. So what we have currently might already have changes planned to be released later on. Just think about when the disintegraters were released some many complained about how useless they were because they had no alpha strike and took so long to get to good dps, now players complain because in skilled players hands they’re overpowered. Same will be true of the Vorton Projector. If a Skybreaker _(lvl4 skilled)_ with a T1 Vorton Projector _(lvl4 skilled, no spec skilled)_ and T2 upgrade can handle a C1 combat site with a little backup support from one other ship, then with better skills and higher meta modules you’ll see the difference, **if you only use T1 modules and low skilled you dead no matter what you fly** ---
**Author:** ![Kalul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalul/32/454262_2.png) [@Kalul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalul)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/55 "2020-06-30T21:12:14Z")
The lightning has a tendancy to arc back and hit your own ships. Kind of breaks the fleet mechanic if you are wiping out both friendly and hostile fleets. or simply absorbing half your own damage back into your fleets tanks. Or blowing up your own drones… ---
**Author:** ![DragoFire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dragofire/32/257926_2.png) [@DragoFire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DragoFire)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2020, 5:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/56 "2020-07-02T05:33:47Z")
If FC know their stuff, they would only allow lvl4+ skill players to use vorton projectors. Frigate speed tank fits with mix of range and close ammo. Cruisers ether shield or speed tanked and similar ammo. Battle ship shield tanked and range ammo as primary. They would also ensure fleet fits were set to tank EM/KIN damage, to limit the amount of friendly damage. Frigates damage most BS wouldn’t even be concerned, with it fitted correctly ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2020, 5:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-edencom-vorton-weapons-tweak/251639/57 "2020-09-30T05:33:49Z")
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