# Off-Topic Thread vol. 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [July 4, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718 "2019-07-04T14:24:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 121
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 4:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2409 "2020-03-06T16:27:59Z")
Well, I don’t want to speak for Mizhara, but… I never got the impression it rose to the level of ‘hate’. Hate takes investment. It takes commitment. To me, Miz just always seemed really disgusted at you, but never really _cared_ about you enough to hate you. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 4:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2410 "2020-03-06T16:30:57Z")
As the persistent subject of her attention, I’ll have to beg to differ, Arrendis. If it wasn’t hate, it was close enough. Definitely close enough to inspire hatred in turn. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2411 "2020-03-06T16:38:35Z")
Well, that’s just Miz’s special gift. I mean, she can inspire that just by hanging out in a bar, talking about her favorite color[1]. I do find myself curious, though, why you’d choose to redirect a conflict with _Mizhara_ toward other people. Miz doesn’t speak for Else, or EM, and as far as I know, has never claimed to. Heck, she didn’t even claim to speak for U’K when she was in U’K. It’d be like me deciding to attack you because Cardinal-Prince Chakargle was mean to me once. * * * 1. Which, for the record, is ‘■■■■ off, what the ■■■■ business of it is yours?’ IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2412 "2020-03-06T16:48:50Z")
> [@Saava\_Valtovist](#): > > I’ve certainly _tried_ to kill people by just hating them very intensely, when I was younger. But, turns out that doesn’t work. Ever tried Mindclash? “Even if participants couldn’t be ripped to pieces in the literal sense, the potential psycho-trauma caused by the constant barrage on the brain could easily reduce a stout man to a whimpering wreck in mere moments.” Hate harder, let if flow through you! [https://fiction.eveonline.com/stories/chronicles/mind-clash](https://fiction.eveonline.com/stories/chronicles/mind-clash) ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2413 "2020-03-06T16:50:13Z")
Miz wasn’t there anymore (and is difficult to affect anyway). Else had spent the campaign seeding a doomed rebellion, which I saw enough of the effects of to inspire a certain amount of anger, and she also spent the whole campaign spinning, spinning, spinning-- trying pretty actively to hurt people I cared about. She was like the anti-Daphiti, spreading chaos and carnage and doing all she could to make it worse. She’d do. (The fact that she was, in her own eyes, doing what was right, or at least necessary, didn’t make it any better. As part of the propaganda both during and after she appeared to be casting herself as a hero, along with the rest of EM, and I wanted to melt that statue she was building of herself into radioactive slag.) (Still kind of do.) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2414 "2020-03-06T17:50:08Z")
You seriously saw that as casting herself and EM as _heroes_? It looked pretty obvious from where I was that her intention was a lot more along the lines of bowing to necessity and trying to support the decisions of those people on Thebeka who refused to go meekly back into the slaughterhouse line. It was never about _her_. It was never about _EM_. It was about the people who were willing to die just for the chance to die _free_, on their own terms. Where you saw her building a statue of herself, I saw the very epitome of the idea ‘my wants are irrelevant, all that matters is the decision _they_ made’. Once again, I really think you need to re-assess your assumptions and your characterizations of people’s motives and actions. And maybe ask yourself _why_ you so consistently _get that wrong_. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2415 "2020-03-06T18:21:48Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I’m not quite saying it’s bad that you can’t smile at all of this. Here we go again. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I dislike you because And I mostly just dislike you because of your incessant telling this to me. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > You were perfectly happy to watch Mizhara Del’Thul dog me relentlessly for a year To be quite blunt, I didn’t watch that all that much. It is interesting though that you choose to take revenge on me for whatever it was she said to you. Mizhara del’Thul is a kinswoman, sure, and for a long time was the closest one I had in space, but as far as kinswomen go, she and her people are more like rivals to me than allies. There is that whole ‘me and my cousin against the outsider’ thing at play here, sure, but… the idea that you could pay back to “us” by annoying _me_ enough that I lose my composure in front of the whole IGS would probably amuse her to no end, and encourage rather than deter further attacks from her. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I don’t whine about having to change or limit my language to be polite That was not what I was complaining about, either. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > This world is a wonder. It’s a shame, even a sin, to get bogged down in our own little corners and not explore it. What I want from talking to you isn’t “entertainment,” Else. It’s fulfillment of a sacred duty. Unless your sacred duty is to be an intolerable know-it-all, it would be beneficial for your explorations to _ask_ more and _assume_ less. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Roman\_Joringer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/red_roman_joringer/32/181976_2.png) [@Red\_Roman\_Joringer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Red_Roman_Joringer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 6:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2416 "2020-03-06T18:38:01Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > It was never about _her_ . It was never about _EM_ . It was about the people who were willing to die just for the chance to die _free_ , on their own terms. Where you saw her building a statue of herself, I saw the very epitome of the idea ‘my wants are irrelevant, all that matters is the decision _they_ made’. Yeah, sure, that’s why you give people guns, not why you set up a big ■■■■■■■ capsuleer party and toss a bunch of ■■■■■■■ crew and stations on the fire, too. ■■■■, like everyone’s not still dining out on that ■■■■■■■■. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2417 "2020-03-06T18:45:54Z")
■■■■ ■■ ■■■■■ ■ ■■■■ ■ ■■ ■■■■■■ ■■■■■■■■ ■ ■■■■ ■■■■■■■■. ■■, ■■■■■■ ■■■■ ■■■ ■■■■■ ■■ ■■■■■■■■■■■ ■■■ ■■■ ■ ■■■■■ ■■■■ ■■■■■■■■ ■■■. ■■■, ■■■ ■■ ■■■ ■■■■■■■■—■■■■■ ■■■ ■■ ■■■■■—■■■■■ ■■ ■■■■■■ ■■ ■■■■■■. * * * ■. ■■■ ■■■■■■■■ ■■■ ■■■■■■■■ ■■■■ ■■■■■■■■ ■■ ■■■■■■ ■ ■■■■■■■■. ■■■■■■■ ■■■■■■■ ■ ■■■■■■ ■■ ■■■■■■■■ ■■■■■ ■■■ ■■■■■■■ ■■. ■■■■ ■■■■■ ■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■ ■■ ■■■■■■ ■■■ ■ ■■ ■■■ ■■■■ ■■■■■■■■■ ■■ ■■, ■■ ■■■■, ■■■■ ■■■■■■, ■■■ ■■■■ ■■■ ■■■! ■■■■ ■■■, ■■■■ ■■ ■■■■■■ ■■■■ ■■■ ■■■ ■■■. ■■ ■■■■■■■■ ■■■■■■ ■■■ ■■■■ ■■■■■ ■■ ■■■■ ■ ■■■ ■■■ ■■■, ■■■■■ ■■■ ■■■ ■ ■■■■■ ■■■. ■■ ■■ ■■, ■■ ■■■■, ■■■■ ■■■■■■, ■■■ ■■■■ ■■■ ■■■! ■■■■ ■■■, ■■■■ ■■ ■■■■■■ ■■■■ ■■■. ■ ■■ ■■■■■ ■ ■■■■ ■ ■■ ■■. ■■■■ ■■ ■■■■■■ ■ ■■■■■■■■. ■■■■■■■ ■■■■■■■■? ■■■ ■■■■■ ■■■■■■. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Roman\_Joringer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/red_roman_joringer/32/181976_2.png) [@Red\_Roman\_Joringer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Red_Roman_Joringer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2418 "2020-03-06T18:50:18Z")
I like thinking of the ■■■■■■■ audio stream on that. Makes me feel warm inside. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2419 "2020-03-06T19:19:32Z")
■☐■ ■☐■ ■☐■☐ ■☐■☐ ■☐■ ☐■☐■ ☐■ ☐■ ☐■☐■. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Roman\_Joringer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/red_roman_joringer/32/181976_2.png) [@Red\_Roman\_Joringer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Red_Roman_Joringer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2420 "2020-03-06T19:21:37Z")
Hey, Tribal style, too. Nicely and regularly ■■■■■■■ separated. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2421 "2020-03-06T19:32:48Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > It was never about _her_ . It was never about _EM_ . It was about the people who were willing to die just for the chance to die _free_ , on their own terms. Where you saw her building a statue of herself, I saw the very epitome of the idea ‘my wants are irrelevant, all that matters is the decision _they_ made’. You didn’t ask about her motives, Arrendis. You asked about mine. That’s how I saw it. To an extent, I still do. I don’t buy her spin. I think she’ll say what she thinks is right for her cause-- to build support, maintain morale, etc. And that’s fine, in a way. But it does mean that I have reason to be suspicious of how she, or you, characterize your motives, Ms. Nobody is Trying to Win. So I’ll continue maintaining my own models, thanks. She can take all the offense she likes, even if I’m trying to stay out of a mindset of “more offense = better.” ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2422 "2020-03-06T19:34:58Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > I don’t buy her spin. I think she’ll say what she thinks is right for her cause-- to build support, maintain morale, etc. And what makes you think she feels any need to _lie_ to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Roman\_Joringer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/red_roman_joringer/32/181976_2.png) [@Red\_Roman\_Joringer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Red_Roman_Joringer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2423 "2020-03-06T19:42:07Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > And what makes you think she feels any need to _lie_ to do that? The same reason every politician ■■■■■■■ lies. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2424 "2020-03-06T19:43:59Z")
Not sure she’s knowingly lying, even if I suspect she might be. It doesn’t matter that much anyway. The full truth is almost always too complicated to be convenient, and I know the use and deployment of a partial truth. It’s very easily used to deceive or conceal. Else takes pride in her abilities as a diplomat. She also wrote a “how to” on instigating revolt. The full truth of both those things is pretty complicated at the best of times, but acknowledging that doesn’t serve her cause. Acknowledging places where I might have a point doesn’t serve her very well, either. If she’s true to herself, she’ll advance her version of reality while degrading mine-- because her cause is important to her. It’s the right thing for her to do. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2425 "2020-03-06T19:46:51Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Not sure she’s knowingly lying, even if I suspect she might be. It doesn’t matter that much anyway. The full truth is almost always too complicated to be convenient, and I know the use and deployment of a partial truth. It’s very easily used to deceive or conceal. Except that doesn’t fit the pattern of _your_ actions. You said you saw her as building a statue to herself. Self-aggrandizement _doesn’t_ serve the end of ‘building support and maintaining morale’ for her cause. It’s directly counter-productive. People don’t flock to the banner of ‘Go help _some other guy_!!’ for the kind of cult-of-personality motives that self-aggrandizement provides them. What I’m coming away with from all this is you directly contradicting yourself… more than once over the course of this discussion, like so many others… and Else _not_ contradicting herself. And yet you insist the internally-consistent perspective that actually squares with observed behavior is the _false_ one, and that your constantly-shifting rationales that contradict themselves multiple times on just one subject are somehow reliable. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2426 "2020-03-06T19:48:39Z")
And here we are back to the explaining me, I see. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Roman\_Joringer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/red_roman_joringer/32/181976_2.png) [@Red\_Roman\_Joringer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Red_Roman_Joringer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2427 "2020-03-06T19:55:06Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > What I’m coming away with from all this is you directly contradicting yourself… more than once over the course of this discussion, like so many others… and Else _not_ contradicting herself. And yet you insist the internally-consistent perspective that actually squares with observed behavior is the _false_ one, and that your constantly-shifting rationales that contradict themselves multiple times on just one subject are somehow reliable. You do ■■■■■■■ realize you’re only interrogating Shorty there, right? If it suited you, you could find whatever you ■■■■■■■ wanted doing that. That’s General ■■■■■■■■ 101. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/2428 "2020-03-06T19:55:55Z")
Much as you and others often accuse me of never changing how I think, Arrendis, I do adjust and adapt. I don’t pretend to be consistent, and I reserve the right to adjust my thinking at various points. I also sometimes don’t speak clearly. I’m generally straightforwardly honest about what I’m thinking or feeling at the time, though. The statue I mentioned is even in my own mind not so much a monument to Else’s ego (that might be kind of modest for a respected faction leader, really) as a rallying point, establishing EM as a source of leadership and inspiration for revolts and revolutions to come. Else literally wrote a “how-to” for others to follow the example. That was my target. Maybe I should even have persisted, but that would have taken an extended period of … just kind of bathing myself in venom? I don’t really want to be what that feels like it would turn me into. > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Come back to me when you actually want to fulfill that ‘sacred duty’ of yours. If that’s an actual offer I’ll be sure to take you up on it. Hm. It looks like you edited it out, though, after editing it in. Offer withdrawn? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718.md?page=120) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718.md?page=122)