# Off-Topic Thread vol. 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [July 4, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718 "2019-07-04T14:24:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 81
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1608 "2019-12-03T17:51:12Z")
> [@Blackguard\_Intratech](#): > > In the latter, we regrettably had to fail her. Gonna have to agree with Else on this one. You have no idea what degree of what you’re seeing is ‘disapproval’ of _her_ vs what’s simply ‘disagreement’ with her, or disapproval of her _statements_. There’s a lot of things, for example, that I think Mel’s 100% wrong about. I still consider her a decent person, and generally approve of her desire to make the cluster a better place. It does seem kind of funny, though, that _exactly_ the thing Else’s complained about multiple people doing—and in large part, the cause of the visible frustration and annoyance you’re assessing as ‘failure’: making assumptions about her without bothering to _ask her_, is precisely the thing you’re doing now with no apparent appreciation for the irony of that course. Does this mean you have to fail yourself now? Can I maybe suggest that in the future, when your Circle is attempting to ascertain information about a person’s feelings on something… just ask them? ---
**Author:** ![Blackguard\_Intratech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/blackguard_intratech/32/167515_2.png) [@Blackguard\_Intratech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Blackguard_Intratech)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1609 "2019-12-03T18:01:28Z")
> [@Love](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/love/202865/71): > > That you say this of a Sundsele clanswoman proves to me beyond any doubt that your love for her is a compromising factor and moreover that _you do not care_ if it is or not, what she is or is not. > [@Love](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/love/202865/61): > > How utterly, _incredibly_ selfish you are, Ramijozana. > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > . And some of these people, they seem to even enjoy coming to me, to make that small chitchat, to smile politely, to see me restrained and _tamed_ by the hospitality laws that require me to ‘leave my politics at the door’, to follow a code of politeness that is _theirs_ , not mine. Should I go on, Captain? I have more than enough CPU to cache a few hundred posts of this tenor. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1610 "2019-12-03T18:03:23Z")
I’m confused. Some Krusual Circle is sending people out to gain other people’s confidence for an ulterior motive? ---
**Author:** ![Blackguard\_Intratech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/blackguard_intratech/32/167515_2.png) [@Blackguard\_Intratech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Blackguard_Intratech)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1611 "2019-12-03T18:06:26Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Gonna have to agree with Else on this one. You have no idea what degree of what you’re seeing is ‘disapproval’ of _her_ vs what’s simply ‘disagreement’ with her, or disapproval of her _statements_ . There’s a lot of things, for example, that I think Mel’s 100% wrong about. I still consider her a decent person, and generally approve of her desire to make the cluster a better place. While it’s quite nice that you think of her as a decent person, the Circle cares little for personal opinions of her. She was graded on her ability to _influence_ her Amarr and Matari peers, and whether there was a _material presentation_ of that ability. While we found evidence of this among the Amarr she had befriended, we have found none among the Matari. If any of you have some sign that she does hold any position of influence among you, I will happily recommend that her mark be raised. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1612 "2019-12-03T18:07:20Z")
> [@The Room for an Argument (specialized Off-Topic)](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-room-for-an-argument-specialized-off-topic/204230/32): > > Spirits, capsuleerdom is a depressing field. So, serious thoughts on this… which makes it off-topic to the pointless argument thread[1] When you have a lot of bored people who neither agree nor particularly _like_ one another sitting around blathering at one another in their downtime, you’re going to get a far more… negative… image of things than if, for example, you observe the same people talking with friends about common interests. So I don’t know that capsuleerdom is the depressing thing, so much as a discussion forum where everyone’s dealing with people they can’t stand is a depressing idea. * * * 1. Is it that the arguments are pointless, or the thread itself? Who cares? ---
**Author:** ![Blackguard\_Intratech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/blackguard_intratech/32/167515_2.png) [@Blackguard\_Intratech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Blackguard_Intratech)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1613 "2019-12-03T18:07:23Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > I’m confused. Some Krusual Circle is sending people out to gain other people’s confidence for an ulterior motive? In other words, it’s Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1614 "2019-12-03T18:10:24Z")
Based on this: > [@Love](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/love/202865/103): > > Her mandate as regards her Minmatar peers was to plant the seed of a new—or perhaps old and out-of-fashion—idea and allow it to take root. The examples you have posted do not seem back up you assertion. The first two quotes reflect Elsebeth’s attitude towards Melisma _personally_, and even that may not reflect the full context. The third quote reflects to her attitude towards peoples expectations, which again, based on the entire issue being discussed now, is still missing context. If I may suggest something, to increase the _reliability_ of your data for what ever mysterious project you are working for, is to Ask directly how we feel about this “idea” that you are trying to seed. Here, I’ll help you. > Pilot (Fill in blank), how do you feel about (What ever it is you are trying to accomplish)? Edit: While I think i know what this _idea_ is, how about I just ask you directly to avoid any confusion. What idea, exactly, was Melisma supposed to ‘plant’? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1615 "2019-12-03T18:11:29Z")
> [@Blackguard\_Intratech](#): > > She was graded on her ability to _influence_ her Amarr and Matari peers, and whether there was a _material presentation_ of that ability. So then _not_… > [@Blackguard\_Intratech](#): > > to gain the approval of her capsuleer peers Because those are vastly different things, and are achieved in fundamentally different ways. For example, I really don’t think I gained much _approval_ from SFRIM when I told them that if they didn’t fish or cut bait in Thebeka, I was gonna show up with a few dozen offended logistics pilots in alpha-strike Tornados and blow them to hell the moment they went suspect as ‘third-party’ logi. _Pretty_ sure the fact that when I said that, I’d already shown up with a dozen of them and was sitting there waiting provided some _influence_ though… and a material presentation of the same! ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1616 "2019-12-03T18:16:14Z")
> [@Blackguard\_Intratech](#): > > > That you say this of a Sundsele clanswoman proves to me beyond any doubt that your love for her is a compromising factor and moreover that _you do not care_ if it is or not, what she is or is not. > > Should I go on, Captain? I have more than enough CPU to cache a few hundred posts of this tenor. So my calling her a “Sundsele clanswoman” and asking her lover to respect that is an _offense_? Figures, coming from a Krusual. Fine, whatever, I’m done here. Melisma, next move is on you, if you ever get rid of these idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1617 "2019-12-03T18:19:38Z")
> [@Blackguard\_Intratech](#): > > She was graded on her ability to _influence_ her Amarr and Matari peers, and whether there was a _material presentation_ of that ability. The Amarrian in question being a Amarrian missionary… Anyone else drawing the conclusion of conspirators? Or is it just me? ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1618 "2019-12-03T18:21:29Z")
> [@Blackguard\_Intratech](#): > > In other words, it’s Tuesday. Huh. I’m not sure on the public burn notice of your asset, but I guess that’s your prerogative. Most Krusual I’ve known probably would have just put a bullet in her head and leave her face down in a river. ---
**Author:** ![Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ange_des_larmes/32/304752_2.png) [@Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ange_des_Larmes)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1619 "2019-12-03T19:23:37Z")
I would suggest that the backlash against Melisma’s ‘promotion’ is, in itself evidence of the influence she had in Matari circles. I am concerned, however, that both Mel and her employers seem to deem not agreeing with her every word as having no influence. It makes whatever outcome you are hoping for sound rather… totalitarian. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1620 "2019-12-03T19:31:55Z")
What in the everloving frell is going on here? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1621 "2019-12-03T19:34:46Z")
> [@Ange\_des\_Larmes](#): > > the backlash against Melisma’s ‘promotion’ Except there isn’t any. Really, Ange, look at what’s being said. Nobody’s taking issue with ‘Mel is getting a transfer to something else she likes doing’. They’re taking exception with someone coming in and making claims about how much the Minmatar capsuleers here “approve” of Mel… or, wait, no, now it’s how much she was able to ‘influence’ them… without actually talking to _any_ of us to find out anything of the sort. Instead, they’re going by… what? Public statements that aren’t even _about_ Mel or her ideas, in some cases? I mean, look at this one: > [@Love](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/love/202865/71): > > > [@Love](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/love/202865/71): > > > > That you say this of a Sundsele clanswoman proves to me beyond any doubt that your love for her is a compromising factor and moreover that _you do not care_ if it is or not, what she is or is not. That’s Else talking to Constantin _about_… **Constantin**. If anything, the attitude toward Mel there is an almost protective one. ‘You say you love this woman who is my kin and of my homeland, but don’t care if your affections harm her’. The third one, too, isn’t even _about_ Mel. It’s about the people Else has had to deal with at social gatherings who more or less rub in her nose ‘you’d really love to hit me, but you can’t, so I’m gonna come right over here and does this bother you? I’m not touching you… see? Not touching you… na na na na, still not touching yoooouuuu’. And yet, Else _went_ to Mel’s skate thing. And that’s supposedly a sign that she _doesn’t_ approve of Mel, and Mel _doesn’t_ have any influence? Stars below and void above, Ange, if all Krusual were that dumb, Shakor’d have nobody to carry out his skullduggery for his old blind ass! They’d have all drowned in the rain or gone outside to take a leak while flying through space. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1622 "2019-12-03T19:42:36Z")
Thank you, Arrendis. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1623 "2019-12-03T19:47:09Z")
I’m not much of a spy or anything, but I’d like to think someone conducting an “influence operation” would have more realistic goals than “agree with me completely or I give up”. I’d imagine such operations are things that take years, or decades, gradually building relationships and trust while exploiting opportunities as they present themselves. Publicly burning someone by revealing they were part of some intelligence operation seems counter-productive to me? Instead of salvaging the asset somehow, or focusing on the Amarr side since they said that had been more productive they created suspicion and lack of trust on _both_ sides since now ulterior motives have been revealed to be at play. It all just strikes me as… weird? ---
**Author:** ![Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ange_des_larmes/32/304752_2.png) [@Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ange_des_Larmes)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1624 "2019-12-03T19:48:59Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Nobody’s taking issue with ‘Mel is getting a transfer to something else she likes doing’. They’re taking exception with someone coming in and making claims about how much the Minmatar capsuleers here “approve” of Mel… or, wait, no, now it’s how much she was able to ‘influence’ them… without actually talking to _any_ of us to find out anything of the sort. That’s what I was trying to convey by referring to a ‘backlash’ but I clearly missed the mark. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Blackguard\_Intratech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/blackguard_intratech/32/167515_2.png) [@Blackguard\_Intratech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Blackguard_Intratech)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1625 "2019-12-03T20:27:28Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > If I may suggest something, to increase the _reliability_ of your data for what ever mysterious project you are working for, is to Ask directly how we feel about this “idea” that you are trying to seed. And do people always tell the truth? Perhaps I’ll test your theory to find out. It might be a fun side experiment. > [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > What idea, exactly, was Melisma supposed to ‘plant’? To begin, the idea that war is a last resort, not a first one. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Because those are vastly different things, and are achieved in fundamentally different ways. “Approval” leads to “influence,” Director Culome. The example you provide is of a very loose definition of “influence”, and not one that we wish to achieve. > [@Deitra\_Vess](#): > > The Amarrian in question being a Amarrian missionary… The idea of us launching a quiet plot involving multiple capsuleers merely to convince a _single Amarr_, much less a priest, is patently laughable. I think I would laugh, if I could. > [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > Most Krusual I’ve known probably would have just put a bullet in her head and leave her face down in a river. You’re thinking of Brutor. Krusual are far more subversive and cunning than that. > [@Ange\_des\_Larmes](#): > > I am concerned, however, that both Mel and her employers seem to deem not agreeing with her every word as having no influence. That’s a rather large logic jump, but perfectly in line with your typical thinking. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And yet, Else _went_ to Mel’s skate thing. And that’s supposedly a sign that she _doesn’t_ approve of Mel, and Mel _doesn’t_ have any influence? Is the attendance of a single Matari loyalist at a single party months ago your single evidence of influence? Even if we accept this faded logic, that “influence” surely ran out at the Matari summit last month, where the rhetoric ran more along the lines of “whore of slavers”. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 8:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1626 "2019-12-03T20:34:52Z")
> [@Blackguard\_Intratech](#): > > And do people always tell the truth? Perhaps I’ll test your theory to find out. It might be a fun side experiment. At the very least it would provide a metric to which you can then compare the rest of your “research” > [@Blackguard\_Intratech](#): > > To begin, the idea that war is a last resort, not a first one. I’ll answer how I feel about this idea after I am done fighting the current war (that the Enemy initiated, need I remind) on Floseswin IV. > [@Blackguard\_Intratech](#): > > > Most Krusual I’ve known probably would have just put a bullet in her head and leave her face down in a river. > > You’re thinking of Brutor. Krusual are far more subversive and cunning than that. No, You are thinking of Thukker. If you are going to be throwing around stereotypical bullsh\*t, at least get it _right_. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718/1627 "2019-12-03T20:36:20Z")
Uh. Okay. So. Um. … my brain’s kind of jamming. Sorry. WHY??? I mean, not WHY??? try to get middle ground going; that doesn’t seem necessarily troublesome. But, WHY??? out your agent? Complete with telling us her performance review? I mean, couldn’t you have, like … I don’t know … made use of her contacts on one side while getting a different agent set up as sort of a moderate Matari partisan or something? I mean … maybe it’s all over my head, but I just don’t get the logic. And I don’t know how much damage this revelation is going to do to what she succeeded in but it definitely feels like it’s going to do some? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718.md?page=80) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/off-topic-thread-vol-2/171718.md?page=82)