Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

You’ve also seen no claims that attacking the State is the ‘current government policy’ of the Amarr Empire. So congratulations on jumping onto the straw man bandwagon.

Rather, you’ve seen statements that are not speculation, detailing the Amarr Empire’s openly stated long-term goals concerning every nation in the cluster, and in fact, beyond the New Eden cluster, as well. Those statements have been supported with evidence, once again, directly from what can be seen as the Amarr Empire’s highest body of laws: divine scripture. And, again, not a single one of the numerous Amarr capsuleers on this board has come forward to challenge statements like this one:

The Amarr Empire’s long-term goals include the complete subjugation of all of humanity, and the obliteration of all cultures that are not Amarr, including the Caldari.

That is not speculation. And none of them will challenge that one, either.

Calling into question the honesty and good faith of the Amarr Empire’s current arrangement with the State does not require active planning of an imminent attack. That the Amarr intend to eventually subjugate you all and force the Caldari people to conform to the ways and beliefs of Amarr fits the analogy that I provided: smiling and telling you ‘I am your friend’ while planning to enslave your children. And that remains the case no matter how many times you attempt to deflect the issue into things nobody claimed.

The Amarr Empire intends to see the Caldari people no longer practice the ways of their ancestors, but rather to adhere to the ways of the Amarr, and they are willing to use force to achieve this, if need be. That, too, is not speculation. And that, too, will not be challenged by a single one of the Amarr capsuleers. They may obfuscate, as you have done, and attempt to cast the matter as a claim of immediate intention… but that will be a lie, as no-one has said the Empire’s immediate intention is to see that achieved. Only that it is their intention. A ruling class that measures their lifespan in centuries can be patient, without ever once wavering in their implacable intent.

I am sure, though, that you’ll continue to decry ‘speculation’, so… I invite you to demonstrate what part of my statements regarding the Empire’s intentions are, in fact, speculation.

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All that I have seen presented as evidence of the following:

Is a few cherry-picked quotes from Amarrian Scriptures. Given the scope and breadth of the Amarr Scripture I think it quite an easy thing to have a selective reading, or to quote out of context, to justify any position one could want as presumably being the word of God.

This is why, as I understand it, the Amarr Empire has the clerics and scholars of the Theology Council to establish Scriptural interpretation and orthodoxy. If somewhere it is made explicit by a government institution of the Amarr Empire such as the Theology Council that Amarr adherents of their rite are obligated to conduct the ‘complete subjugation of all humanity’ as you put it, then I will take that under consideration in the context of the Caldari relationship with the Empire.

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Given that the scope and breadth of the Amarr Scriptures is, according to Amarr scholars like @Gaven_Lok_ri and many others, more than the sum total of words spoken by the inhabitants of a random small town over a century, there is no way that any reference to the Scriptures could not be considered ‘cherry-picked’.

However, it is also important to remember that the references I’ve given you are ones often-quoted by the Amarr themselves. And, once again, not a single one of them has even attempted to deny the thing you are so desperate to discredit.

Ask them. Ask them publicly. Ask @Lunarisse_Aspenstar. Hell, I’ll do it for you. Let’s see if she’ll even answer.

@Lunarisse_Aspenstar, @Gaven_Lok_ri, @Arline_Kley, @Mitara_Newelle, @Amicia_Cora : Do the Amarr have a divine mandate to bring all of humanity under the Imperial Throne?

Heck, let’s up the ante here a little: @Olacar_xer_Sarum, if you’ve got time (I understand that you’re a busy man, what with being the direct representative of a Royal Heir), same question.

Let’s see if any of them will deny it. After all, they might surprise me, and be willing to deny God, here in public. But I doubt it.

And, just to be clear on this:

No, your efforts to once again re-direct and deflect were not unnoticed. But at least now that you’ve been directly called out to actually demonstrate the ‘speculation’, and failed to do so, you’ve dropped that line of nonsense.

Of course the Amarr hope that in time all of God’s children will be one.
God’s time, of course, is a quite a different scale than ours.
All I do is in witness for, and in service of, my Faith.

So we try to spread the Good Word. Sometimes it falls on deaf ears.
But God works on his timescale, not mine, and not everyone can be saved.

As for what this means to in practice as a member of SFRIM? Ms. Cora said it best:

I don’t “do” the IGS Arrendis. If you want to talk privately, further, just send me a mail and we can have lunch over beetles and tea.

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That reads like a resounding “yes” to the question whether or not the State will eventually be a target for Reclaiming. Thank you, it’s good that we’re clear on these things.

Directrix Phonaga has already answered more than adequately, but I will add one more comment here. Specifically, in response to:

and

In light of:

How poorly these words were understood.

We are not hiding or seeking to deny the core of our faith because there is no need to deny it. It is no secret that it is an inherent part of who we are to spread God’s divine order across the cluster, and it is hardly a feat of great intelligence to point out that the Caldari State is part of that cluster. As I said before, it truly is not the ‘gotcha’ that you believe it is to point out that Reclaiming in God’s name is an intractible part of what it means to be Amarr. Especially when the people you are tagging have never really hidden from the fact in the first place:

Yet, international relations are, ultimately, what we make of them. It is worth remembering that Holy Amarr is not, and never has been, a static entity:

And so we can either recognise that our neighbours share differing views to us, and yet still choose to engage with them with faith in ourselves that we can work towards a better future; or we can manifest fear and sow distrust by giving in to our own pessimism.

I can only say that it truly is tragic to see people of such demonstrable intelligence, otherwise so talented, give in to the latter approach. But that is precisely why those of us in Khimi Harar strive to be a light that shines amongst the darkness.

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Would you stop pinging every Amarrian you know? We know you like attention but this is getting silly.

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You continue the tradition of arguing against a position no one has taken. Yes, I’m well aware that you’re open about it, but this doesn’t seem to stop some of your more deluded allies from putting blinders on and pretending very hard that this is not the case. This then necessitates clarifying and repeating what really shouldn’t have to be at this point. No more, no less.

While those like… I’m not even going to try pronouncing that complicated sneeze of a name… very adamantly stick their fingers in their ears and warble the silly little refrain of “surely the Varg won’t eat my face”, we’re rather morally and ethically obligated to point out they’re at risk of having their face eaten.

And that the Varg is telling them they’re going to eat their face.
And that the Varg has already eaten a lot of faces.
And that the Varg is licking its lips and drooling.

This is indeed not a ‘gotcha’, which ironically displays that our words are indeed poorly understood. It’s adding more giant glaring neon signs pointing at the Empire, saying it will eat your face. Eventually. What boggles the mind is that this is to this day necessary to do, as outsiders to both the Empire and its more recent victims fervently and blindly proclaim that surely it is not so, while putting on their nightly BBQ sauce face mask.

There are plenty of reasons why capsuleers choose not to respond to you that have nothing to do with the merit of your arguments, love. :wink:

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I didn’t. I’d give you the list, but that’d undermine the intent of not doing it, now wouldn’t it?

Already addressed that, too. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Maybe you should go back and actually try to comprehend what I said. In fact, the fact that you haven’t tried to hide it is my point. It’s your ally and alliance-mate who keeps insisting that saying ‘X is true’ is speculation and suspect. I don’t think of it as a ‘gotcha’ at all, but rather a ‘believe what they tell you’.

So, you know, good job again arguing against a bunch of straw men.

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Sure. Looking back, the context within which the topic of the Empire’s goals for the Reclaiming came up in this conversation was the following:

A clear attempt to sow the seeds of doubt in the minds of State loyalists; to create an impression within their minds that cooperation with Amarr will lead to their destruction. Ms. Ryuzouji thus replied:

Acknowledging the uncertainty of the future, but nevertheless wishing to act on good faith with hope for a positive future. They were, however, immediately set again upon with comments about how negative outcomes are unavoidable and Amarr will move to destroy them:

The implication being obvious: that good faith engagement with Amarr is folly. It will result in bloody conflict at best, or destruction at worst, because a core tenet of the Amarrian faith is and has been the Reclamation of the cluster.

Thus, contrary to what the responses by yourself and Del’thul claim, my posts were appropriate for the topic at hand. They addressed the fact that, yes, as you pointed out, the long-term goal of the Empire is and has been the Reclamation of a cluster that includes the Caldari State. They then, more importantly, addressed the horrifically pessimistic context within which you have all presented and interpreted that fact in order to plant doubt and fear in the mind of a State citizen about the end-game of positive relations with Amarr.

My posts addressed both the thing you said, and the wider context within which you brought it up.

I will leave this here. There is little benefit to be had in engaging with this conversation any further.

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This is why you should stick to arguments people have actually made, rather than invent others and then tilt at them. Even in the quotes you provided, ‘bloody conflict’ is not the starting point of the scale, even if you try to bold your way around that. Willing submission is. So no, your posts are not in fact ‘appropriate for the topic at hand’ so much as they’re strawmen argumentation.

There really is no pessimism or ‘interpretation’ going on. There is simply acknowledging that your nation is, through the words of your Scripture, your leaders, your culture and your actions intent on the subjugation of all of humanity, and the eradication of contrary culture or belief. This includes the State.

There is really nothing more to it, and no matter the argumentative contortions deployed, it isn’t going to go away. This isn’t ‘planting doubt’, it’s a simple warning about the risks of putting on blinders when it comes to the relations the State has with the Empire. Simple as.

Feel free to substitute ‘bloody conflict’ with ‘willing submission’, or replace the entire line with just ‘will result in negative outcomes for the State’. You know full well that my statement holds regardless.

But even if you don’t, I’m content to let others decide for themselves.

I have never heard of any plans to attack our valued allies in the State, and would be appalled if I did.

And there is seriously no value in quoting pre-space or unchallenged era scripture as predictive of what Amarr will do in future. The Pax Amarria and Pax e Kilizhi Do are both more relevant to the current state of the Empire.

We certainly do believe that at the end of time all things will have been brought back into rightness with God, but there is no proscribed mechanism for this and no set timeframe.

We also have a long history of honoring our agreements and alliances. If the Caldari chose to follow the Khanid or Ammatar path and join the Empire and Faith, we would of course be delighted, but our agreements with them are made without any expectation of such a result.

They have proven honorable allies, and that is worthy of respect.

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So are you saying then that your mandate is not to convert—by force if need be—all of humanity?

And no-one has argued that there are current plans to attack the Empire. Amarr’s divine mandate to convert all of humanity, by force if necessary, includes the State. Yes or no?

I was curious on the nature of Imperial religious doctrine regarding their Reclaiming, and I don’t think one should ever take claims at face value without at least seeking to inspect them. You mentioned the Empire is compelled by divine law to attack the State, as such if true then there would I think be promulgations and decrees from the Theology Council or the Empress Catiz I stating such since they determine what divine law is.

Only if it contradicted far older divine law. Kittenz and the Theology Council don’t have to publish ‘all the stuff is still what it was’ decrees, after all.

I will bite and answer. Yes.

Now lets pretend all the other empires would not conquer the rest if they had the means, and create a narrative that Caldari should break their alliance with the Amarr because there is a scenario where one day the Amarr Empire conquers the Caldari. As if there is not a scenario where any other faction or empire would do the same.

Your argument is getting old and you just keep it going.

Maybe they should be friends with the Gallente, they have always been good to them. Or I am sure the Minmatar would be the best of allies, and the Minmatar will help the Caldari destroy the Gallente while fending off the Amarr.

Or, they could join the Gallente and Minmatar and team up on Amarr! What a happy universe that would be afterwards, everyone would live in harmony, the Caldari would be perfectly safe! Everyone lives happily ever after huh?

Hell even Sahara and the Triglavians could be friends with this happy new harmonious cluster, being that everyone but the Amarr are so innocent and just a bunch of peace loving creatures.

Aaaand we’re back to the silly equivocation nonsense. We’ve covered this, repeatedly. The other big three are - at the moment at any rate - not under any kind of mandate or intent towards complete human domination. None of them have the mandate or intent to force their culture and faith upon the rest of the cluster. The closest you’ll get is the Federation softly pushing their chaotic primary export everywhere they can, which I’ll grant you is a more insidious threat than the Empire, but hardly similar in neither intent or danger.

There is only one nation in New Eden, not counting Sansha, that have the stated and core to their faith and identity intent and mandate to reclaim all of humanity. It is uniquely dangerous in this regard, for as long as this remains core to the Empire it is not held back in any way by “this would be too costly” or “this is counter to our laws and philosophy” and so on and so forth. The only thing that has ever held it back is military might.

Trying to pretend this is in any shape way or form something that can be applied to the other three is downright disingenuous.

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