Off-Topic Thread

(Arrendis) #2382

Sure. That’s what you want right now. But the issue wasn’t ‘what you want’. The issue as you originally framed it was that if someone wants to do something to you that you don’t want, you won’t let them. Making you do something you don’t want to do is doing something to you: it’s compelling you, forcing you, phrase it however you like.

So you’re not going to do things you don’t want to do. Right now, you label that as ‘keeping your integrity’, but if that changes… you won’t be bound by any of it. Because you don’t want to be. And I trust your statement of not letting people do things to you that you don’t want a lot more than I trust exhortations of lofty ideals from someone who’s simultaneously telling me that lofty ideals are all shite.

(Aria Jenneth) #2383

“Integrity” isn’t really an ideal. It’s more about being trustworthy, to others and to myself. It’s something I try to have. I don’t really have much by way of lofty ideals, Arrendis. A few guiding principles and ideas, though.

I usually leave “ideals” to people who feel like getting in a big fight with the world.

(Arrendis) #2384

Being trustworthy is an ideal, Aria. It’s a thing you strive to be, to live up to. And really, given the internal contradictions even in even that two-line post… it’s a pretty lofty one.

(Aria Jenneth) #2385

I can’t agree, Arrendis. Ideals exist in a domain of the abstract, and typically aren’t achievable. “A perfectly lawful, ordered, and just society” is a good example. Nobody outside, maybe, Sansha’s Nation has ever fully done away with crime, and it seems unlikely most of the rest of us would call what Nation gets up to “just.” The abstraction might be worth working towards, but it can’t be reached.

Now-- being trustworthy? That’s a much more “real” sort of thing. I try to be a person who keeps my word and who doesn’t disappoint the trust of the people who depend on me. Mostly just one person, actually. The relatively humble character of the goal is right there in the name: “trustworthy,” worthy of trust; worth trusting. That’s something more attainable, and I even might flatter myself a little that I’ve achieved such a thing: that I really am someone a certain somebody can trust.

(“Honor” is often more of an ideal, particularly if you look at some of the really old codes. Like the ones from the Raata Empire or the old aristocrats on Achura? Talk about strict! … but, like I said, it was an ideal, and a lot of the people who were supposed to live up to such things, didn’t. And maybe hardly anyone, maybe even no-one, could. It’s possible, even likely, that things were better than otherwise because they were trying, though.)

(Arrendis) #2386

This is the very epitome of striving for an ideal. Congratulations on proving yourself wrong.

(Veikitamo Gesakaarin) #2387

It’s pretty obvious to any Caldari just exactly what I am and the game I play.

(Aria Jenneth) #2388

Arrendis, are you now trying to somehow get to me by saying weird things?

An ideal is typically a matter of striving for perfection. Keeping my word (which I rarely give) and not betraying certain people’s trust … isn’t all that hard. It’s a fairly humble, achievable goal.

(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #2389

… in which alternative universe?

(Arrendis) #2390

No, Aria. The fact that you can’t see trustworthiness as an ideal that you strive toward—even if it’s potentially achievable—doesn’t change the fact that it is.

Though I do notice you’ve gone from real ‘trustworthiness’ to ‘not betraying certain peoples’ trust’. In other words, not actually trustworthy at all, just not burning bridge to the useful folks. The ones who let you do what you want to do without pointing out the internal inconsistencies… because it’s as convenient for them as it is for you.

(Aria Jenneth) #2391



I was just about to say that “absolute loyalty”-- THAT is an ideal. Staying worth trusting isn’t something I find even all that difficult.

(Veikitamo Gesakaarin) #2392

I would have to agree with Arrendis here. I have never violated a contract, I keep my promises, and I always seek to follow through.

Despite that, people still find me untrustworthy (their words).

(Aria Jenneth) #2393

You’ll notice the qualifier goes earlier: “the people who depend on me. Mostly just one person actually.”

I’m not the kind of creature who’ll claim to be always honest, Arrendis, and frankly I don’t find ideals all that respectable for their own sake. They put a person permanently at war with reality. Sometimes that’s useful, but … eh?

(Also: if I have to be totally consistent to be considered principled, please feel free to consider me unprincipled.)

(Arrendis) #2394

Perhaps not, Aria, but if people can’t trust you, no-one can trust you. If you’re the sort of person who thinks nothing of lying and deceiving people to get your way, then how can anyone ever trust that you’re sincere when you say that of course they can trust you?

After all, aren’t you just saying what they want to hear, to get your way? To get what you want… their trust?

“Oh, but my actions tell them that!” Except they don’t. They just tell them that you still find them useful enough to keep stringing along.

Mizhara would shoot me in a heartbeat in space, if it suited her goals. There is no variation on this world where she would have a moment’s hesitation in those circumstances. The same is true of Aldrith and Mitara, and even Napkins. And I can disagree with all of them, and think they are completely wrong and pigheaded about certain things.

But I don’t have reason to think they’re dishonest. I don’t have reason to think that they don’t understand that being dishonest to ‘some’ people means nobody can really trust you.

I used to include you on that list. And that makes me sad.

But still not bitter.

(Aria Jenneth) #2395

Ah, Arrendis. Whenever someone tells you they never lie?

Odds are, they’re a liar.

I don’t think I ever told you such a foolish thing.

If you had some weird ideas about me … well, I won’t apologize for you seeing more clearly, though I’m a little puzzled that you seem to think something significant has changed. I don’t think I’ve changed anything very much, though.

“All around me, coming and going, are naught but dreams.”

Anyway-- see you around. And, Happy YC 121!

(Arrendis) #2396

Oh, no, Aria… this isn’t about ‘says they never lie’. It’s about ‘always strives to be honest, no matter who they’re dealing with’.

Consider who I’ve named, and why.

(Aria Jenneth) #2397

I prize integrity, instead. It’s related, but a little different. I don’t resent being lied to by someone who is just following their own proper course. Lying in the course of duty is just … duty. To me, it’s not at all a mark against the one who does it.

But …

If you want to look at me as dishonest-- uh, okay. It makes me a little sad, also. But, I don’t have control over your judgments, and there’s no way to fix that. Trusting anyone is a risk to begin with.

Oh well?

(Veikitamo Gesakaarin) #2398

Only nine more days until I complete my last year’s resolution to not kill anyone for one year.


(Arrendis) #2399

I believe that you sincerely want me to believe that.

But how can I trust it beyond that? How can anyone?

(Aria Jenneth) #2400

Well … like I said, trust is a risk. Ideally a calculated one.

Maybe wait until there’s something you need to trust me about, or not, and then decide?

(Arrendis) #2401

If I don’t know that I can trust you, Aria, I don’t know that I can trust you. It’s not a ‘this moment’ or ‘that moment’ thing. Like everything else in life, it’s an ongoing process.

Someone with integrity tends to be someone who’s making a lot of personal sacrifices to maintain that integrity. They’re not just doing what they want to do. They’re not just doing what’s convenient for them or the people they serve. Often, they’re doing extremely inconvenient things because those things need doing, because those things are right, even if it costs them.

It’s kind of a lofty ideal. So you can see how I’m… skeptical.