You know, for a person who claims nonbelief, you’re a rather imperious and orthodox believer.
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So then it’s your position that things exist that your god did not create? Where did they come from? Who made them?
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One day, perhaps we will be ready to know. Until then, we do not have the requisite perspective to even begin to comprehend.
Imperious? I’m not telling you what to believe. I’m just pointing out what your belief means, if you try to follow its repercussions.
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Well, let’s try this another way:
Do you know of anything that exists that is not a creation of your god?
Do your scriptures speak of it even being possible for something to exist that was not created by your god?
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And you are telling two people who have lived all their lives in the faith what our belief must mean, despite that we are both telling you quite plainly why and how you are mistaken. We don’t live under the auspices of your base conclusion upon which you build the following repercussions.
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Of course, God himself exists. As we know he created us, it is reasonable to assume He came from somewhere. All things were one, yet He existed to part them. There must, therefore, be something of a fashion beyond.
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Yes, I am. I am saying that you two are wrong. And you are saying that I am wrong.
But when I do it, I am demonstrating the simple logic and causal chain supporting my position. You two are not. You are merely repeating dogma, unsupported by evidence or reason.
Which ‘conclusion’ is that? Because those repercussions are the conclusion, based on the 2 principles outlined in my first post on this topic: That your god has the power to create everything, and that your god has the power to know the future inerrantly… both of which are claims your religion does make.
So your position is that there must be more than god? That god must exist in a frame of reference where things not of his making exist? Who made those things?
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Your logic is based on the assumption that God’s predestination is absolute, beyond will, when will is evident and spoken of at length in the Scriptures. Your interpretation is simply incorrect, and it forms the basis of your argument. Were any of that true, the entirety of the command to follow God’s Path, the entire concept of sin, would not exist. Yet it is spoken of at length. You have never rectified the existence of sin with your initial rationale.
Forthwith, yes, there must be a ‘place’ God exists, in a fashion, though it is likely outside the capacity of our understanding. How could we begin to understand outside Creation when we barely understand Creation itself? The questions you ask are not invalid, but you may be trying to run before you can crawl.
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Except that this would mean that human will can prove god’s prophecy wrong. Can god’s prophecies be wrong? NOTE: not ‘can humans fail to live up to god’s directives’, but when god says ‘X will happen’, can he be wrong?
I’ve also never claimed your god’s not a sadistic prick who told you all about ‘sin’ in order to watch his pet flies pull the wings off of other flies for his amusement. Mostly because I’ve been avoiding going down the ‘your god is clearly a sadistic monster’ path here. One step at a time, hmm?
And who would have made this place?
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A human certainly can fail to live up to their potential before God. That is sin, when we fail and we are not repentant. One person quite clearly can. And one person, acting on his or her own, surely will. To fail and to not be sorry is in our individual nature. That is why God commands that we act together. We are given the command to Communion, to stand shoulder to shoulder with our brothers. Our collective nature is to not fail. To right each others wrongs, to care for those we love, to try and correct each others’ mistakes. When we act collectively, in God’s teaching, to succeed is inevitable. It is what we were designed to do.
Therefore, we don’t see Him in the ‘sadistic prick’ vein. We know that our choice is to live together and love together, in harmony, each doing his duty, and thus move us ever closer to Heaven, to help our brothers and sisters along and to be supported when we fail, or to not. Our pain is self-inflicted.
In response to who would have made God’s place, we do fully intend to ask him when we finally walk the path to Heaven. We have some more important Work to take care of first before we start making demands of God to understand things which are likely so far beyond us.
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Arrendis, you’re an exceptionally intelligent individual, but I feel that intelligence causes you to overthink things sometimes.
Like a lot of discussions on this topic, that overthinking has unfortunately led us into the realm of semantics.
I hope that some day I can find an argument for God that resonates with you Until then I’ll consider my inability to do so a personal failure.
I just feel that we’re not speaking the same language when we’re on this topic.
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Congratulations on running away from the actual question.
Can god’s prophecies be wrong?
The reason I ask this, you see, is that if god didn’t make it, someone else did. That someone else would at least appear to be more powerful than your god. Which would seem to indicate that your statement in this regard ventures into heresy.
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A whole lot of of words have been written for this.
And nothing resolved.
I believe in a God who does not intentionally create evil, endowed us with free will, and knows all possible outcomes.
Look, I get it. What happened to the Minmatar in the name of God was pretty shitty. Some horrible things have been done with the justification of ‘Deus vult.’ That’s a failing of humanity, not God. Leave the giant essays off the forums, please?
This has nothing to do with what happened to the Matari, Alizabeth.
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Again, my dear, you misunderstand. To believe God exists somewhere else, might have some reality beyond ours, that is not heresy. You are confusing that with believing there is a power in Creation which is more worthy to revere, which would be. The key difference is knowing whom we serve, and not questioning that which is not yet revealed to us. We are servants of God, and so long as we are, he shall reveal to us what is beyond in time. This is the Path.
This is why God’s prophecies will not be wrong. Could they be? If we make a concerted effort to completely dissolve our society and break all bonds of fellowship, it is possible. However, it is not in our general nature to do so. We are not constructed to act in that fashion; we act in a collective.
Which brings us neatly back to the point. We have the free will to, as one, collectively break the prophecy. Yet we are born and built to act in harmony when we come together, and so long as we do we shall always follow the Path to Heaven. So we have free will, we can make our choices, but God knows us from all possible perspectives, and knows that the way to Heaven is not only the easiest way for us, but the entirely inevitable conclusion to our creation. It would take an impossible force of collective sin to break that prophecy, and so long as two believers remain shoulder to shoulder, it is certain.
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Fine then. I’m out. You all have a great time.
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I do apologize, my dear, but this is my job.
If there exists a reality which god did not make, but some other entity did in the same general manner in which god made this reality, then, in the same way that we can say ‘god made you’, that other entity ‘made god’. Which would then seem to indicate that that other entity, not ‘god’ is, in fact, the ultimate creator of this reality, in the same way that god is held to be the ultimate creator of say… drones. Even rogue ones. Just because we make the drones doesn’t mean they’re not part of ‘god’s creation’, it just means that we were the instrument through which he brought them into being.
Similarly, this second-order entity would then have used ‘god’ as the instrument through which to bring us into being. That entity would then be the actual ‘creator’ who should be venerated. And that… yeah, that seems to be heretical, near as I can tell.
But then, your claim that god is not infallible also seems to be heretical. So, sorry I made you expose your heresies.
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Oh come now, Arrendis! I’ve had this precise conversation before, had it recorded, and sent before the Theology Council for one of my continuing education theses! I am examined annually as a matter of course! If you worry about having me called before a heresy panel, I would not despair. Your lack of understanding of the finer intricacies of Scriptural doctrine aren’t your fault. And, believe me, I’ve had a lot of practice at this. Some with much finer knowledge of the doctrines than yourself have had a go at it, I’ll be perfectly fine.
Specifically, to answer your question, there is nothing in the Scriptures to indicate, one way or another, where God came from. Only that he existed before Creation, which God created from all that was present to us. We are thus commanded to commence the Work, and that should we complete it by walking the Path, we shall inevitably come to Heaven. We are then told that the way to Heaven is assured by our very natures should we fulfill God’s command.
So what is beyond? You may be entirely correct that God serves someone above him as we serve our God, our Empress, our Lords, et cetera. That is intrinsic in the command, that we serve joyously for such is our pleasure. Or, perhaps God truly is penultimate, and the way to Heaven leads to a plane most high. In whatever case, such is not our concern. God is our ultimate authority here in Creation, all around us which we perceive is created by Him and must lead us on His Path. As in Creation, we are asked to serve our lords without question, and there is no higher authority to which we report.
If you are ever in the Empire trying to avoid heresy, you’ll be fine as long as you don’t start worshipping your toaster and using that rationale to call out the possibility that it could exist above God. That’s actually a rather famous Scriptural debate from well-nigh a thousand years ago, and its conclusion is quite simple. It doesn’t matter, God is our ultimate authority, so we shall always answer only to Him until the Work is complete. You don’t even try to ape the chain of command, so to speak.
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