Capsuleers are the masters of half-arsing in my mind, so please don’t take my comparing people to capsuleers as anything positive.
Yes. I would consider not half-arsing it actually, actively working for change in a way that is effective and produces measurable results. For example, a holder who regularly buys and then smuggles slaves out into Republic space. That will never change the Empire, but there is a real and measurable result there.
And I do believe that short of an absolute political masterstroke that would be equally difficult for a capsuleer, there is nothing such people could actually do to change the Empire as a whole from within. I consider that a lost cause and it is one of the biggest reasons supposed abolitionists hold up to not do anything, but I’ve never seen any real results come from that.
That does mean that “not half-arsing it” means active resistance of some kind, breaking people out, or most ideally, joining the war to bring down the Empire because that seems to be the only kind of pressure it’s actually susceptible to. I don’t see an Amarr Empress introducing a law that sets all slaves free in a million years, no matter how hard the little people play politics.
It does mean the people “not half-arsing it” would risk death, exile, and the possible enslavement of themselves and their families, and that is why I don’t necessarily judge people who don’t want to go that far.
Just don’t make a big show over “changing the Empire from within”, please.
So spending time and money to support and perpetuate the slave trade is good, but spending time and money to try to convince others to release their slaves and not buy more is bad?
I mean, your example holder there… they’re just part of the market demand, in the end, funneling money into the pockets of the slavers.
Obviously not ideal, but in the short term I’d rather they have money then slaves, sure. It is still a life we are talking about.
And it would be undeniable that something is getting done, somebody is getting freed, so sure, that would be good enough.
Trying to convince others is-…What? Who are you trying to convince, exactly? I suppose it’s nice if they manage it, but it doesn’t change much, I feel.
And neither example will ultimately play a hand in any permanent fixing of the Amarr problem. But as you say, we can’t denounce everyone who makes contributions.
Right, but I’d still rather the slaves be set free by a compassionate soul. It would be something. Obviously I would prefer they do more, but it is a measurable contribution, one that they would risk persecution for. I can respect it, at least.
I mean what else are we going to do, denounce all efforts that try to help and back a zero-sum mindset only? You’re either with us or against us, you 're either in the fight or you’re part of the problem?
As long as there is demand for slaves, slavery will continue, and will almost certainly expand. So the Holder that is buying slaves is feeding the system, making change less likely.
If we can end the demand for slaves – which will never completely be destroyed, of course, but it can, slowly, be minimized – much of the driving force behind slavery will end. Not completely or overnight, mind you, there will be those that think of owning slaves as a status symbol, and of course there will be religious motivations, but it will, I believe, be the beginning of the end for slavery as an organized institution outside of criminal groups.
It is very understandable, of course, that those opposed to slavery might wish to try to free slaves by any means possible, and I hardly blame them for doing so. It is, however, important to remember, that simply freeing a slave – while undoubtedly an act of great kindness that the freed slave will be very glad of – does not actually help end slavery – for when that slave is gone, there is suddenly a need for another slave to take their place, and you can be sure that, by whatever methods they can, slavers will find a new slave and thus keep the system going.
Your response here has generated a spirited and moving discussion of the nature of slavery and abolition, and I applaud that. I don’t applaud your thin-skinned vanity that took offense at my calling you out on your error in addressing Ms. Jenneth as such, and, so offended, decided to justify yourself by applying my singular comment more broadly than it was intended.
Admittedly, I am unfamiliar with whichever anti-slavery elements are active within the Empire, and given the very public nature of this venue, I prefer not to be elaborated to here. (Perhaps elsewhere.) That being said, Ms. Vuld’s assessment is absolutely correct. There is no region in existence that accepts good intentions as valid currency. We need results. Results will free our brethren. Results will end slavery.
Are these people working toward ending slavery by physically freeing slaves, destabilizing the societal infrastructure that feeds slavery, or outright engaging in protest and riot? (Which, I should note, would count against ‘funding slavery,’ as such efforts would cost holders instead.) Or are we talking about armchair observers, who try to debate their coworkers and neighbors and argue with pundits, comforting themselves with the idea that one more holder will break the chain? The former group is effective resistance. The latter is, frankly, wasting their own time and effort as well as ours.
It’s irresponsible and naive to think at this juncture that words and changing perceptions and making them comfortable will ever have an effect on the matter. On other subjects, certainly, I think it is possible to convince someone with words, but not on the subject of Amarrian slavery. We are beyond debate. By now we have vividly illustrated that we, Matari, are equal humans. We have illustrated that we are not ‘barbarians,’ but instead, capable of thought and government and creativity and industry. We have also exposed slavery for the cruelty that it is, revealed for all the cluster to observe. Anyone who still has doubts on this is lost to us.
As a side note, I imagine that it is possible to live in Amarr without supporting slavery. Highly difficult, but possible, not ‘impossible’ as you have said. Maybe someone could consume products only created absent slavery, and avoid paying takes and dues into institutions that do support slavery, and so forth. Perhaps someone more familiar with Amarrian economics and culture could elaborate on how easy or difficult this would be to pull off.
So yes, there is a grey area; but also yes, these anti-slavery groups need to be directly spurring quantifiable change in what they’re doing. And, as the gentleman preceding me pointed out, efforts to destroy slavery independent of freeing slaves is as important, if not more so. But if these groups are nothing but talk and have nothing to show for it, then by their presence in the Empire alone they are feeding what they wish to destroy (again, unless they’re pulling off some sort of elaborate ‘no-slavery’ diet thing), and they would serve the effort much better by leaving Amarr space and joining with organizations who are already achieving results to this end.
That’s why on your way out, you kill that guy, his family, his family’s pets, most people that family has met and then you start seeing if the message has sunk in yet. Why yes, I’m indulging in hyperbole, but the point stands. If the freed slave’s former owner is still keen on slaveholdin’ when you’re done, you didn’t do the damn job right.
I can assure you, the markets are losing customers when the Network is coming to town. When the message fails to be understood, there’s escalation.
You’re not that stupid, Garry. You know that unless they’re capsuleers - and sometimes even then - they can be… persuaded. Especially when examples have been set in the past.
"Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us, and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves.”
Was this a lie? Thought the words of the late empress were holy? But supposedly it will never be so as long as there is a market, a market created by the very people who adored her…
From the moment there is no Royal family that is within the confines of Abolitionism, then there will be no viability in this issue. Slavery is well within the cornerstone of the Imperial society. Given how these routers are public and even the office of the Empress does take some notice I am surprised how some can dare publicly claim something of the sort.
The discussion though about the future of disregarding slavery or even bringing in a reform IS part of the Liberal bloc within the Empire. But it’s usually used in a format of appearances to gain entry and rights in foreign goods/deals rather than of substance.
I litterally just quoted the late empress taking a more abolitionist opinion in an official decree, sure on that? Supposedly the Amarr care for the words of their empress, shouldn’t that make you all more receptive towards it?
Yup. That’s totally it. I’m not an arrogant, pedantic jerk, I just give a fetid fedo fart what some idiot who’s been in space a whole week thinks.
And the gentleman preceding you is an Amarr noble. He has titles and territory. Good luck convincing him that his goals (of which, abolition is only one, and not the most important) would be better served by leaving Amarr space and actively taking part in acts of aggression against his own House.
Yes, they could avoid paying taxes… to the Amarr Empire. Or stop living in a society where power, communications, basic utilities, and social order itself are provided by organizations built on the foundation of slavery. Someone other than the Imperial Navy could patrol the system they live in. Someone other than a Noble House sworn to uphold the policies of the Golden Throne—including slavery—could own the system they live in.
Truly, your brilliance and grasp of cluster-wide affairs known no bounds.
A lie? No, at least, I do not believe it was an intentional one. Others, of course, may have other opinions.
But those who stand to gain from slavery continuing, however, will no doubt find excuses as to why she meant ‘not quite yet.’
I’m sure they’ll still adore her, or the parts of her they like, at the same time. Humans are often curious like that.
That said, while her words will not on their own cause slavery to halt, they do give many cause to think, and, hopefully, motivate them to consider more positively a future without slavery. But it is we who must do the work to bring it about, and not rely simply upon her words to accomplish all.
Well in that case that particular quote doesnt take a more abolitionist opinion at all…Lets not confuse Amarr liberalism, which the current Empress is at the core of it, with hard Left opinions…per context of the Amarr society goes that is.
The late empress Jamyl said that, I’m sorry but I don’t see how part of a speech announcing the emancipation of Matari could be not seen as more abolitionist words.
I didnt deny it wasnt the Empress Jamyl who said that…I only pointed to you that the current Empress is an Amarr Liberal and hasnt given any indication of hard Left opinions… With addition saying that indeed that quote from Empress Jamyl doesnt take an abolitionist view as well. Not in the context of how the majority of people understand Abolitionist views.
She only hinted a new era of relationship, per manner of interaction, between non True Amarr and the rest of the races. Emancipation never meant fully blown out abolition of slavery as well either…
Very true, this was in fact a large part of my late parent’s motivation for freeing the vast majority of their slaves, being able to market Amarr goods as “not produced by slave labor” does seem to fill a certain economic niche. That said, while this is hardly a humanitarian motive for reform, I think in the end it will prove an effective one, eventually I believe it will be shown that we can be more economically competitive by reducing or eliminating reliance on slave labor, which will ultimately drive demand down.
That said, I make no claim that it will be a short road or that it will be continuous progress, there are likely to be setbacks. And I also think that it is likely to be most effective with some amount of outside pressure, though the actual change, I believe will come from internal forces.
All that said, I may prove to be wrong in this. However, as Arrendis points out, I am an Amarr noble, and I work with the system to try to achieve my goals.
