God so instructed the Holy Throne through the late Imperial Majesty Damius III that only the people of the Tribe of Nefantar of Matar were to be considered extended His compassion and mercy. I can only surmise that the nature of sin in the Matari as a whole apart from the Tribe of Nefantar was considered such an affront and so egregious that the incarnation of Vengeance was the only way to bring His Truths to them.
I’m not sure if red, bronze, blue, or green would look best for a party dress.
1 Like
Red and Bronze.
Which, again, doesn’t actually address the meat of the issue: if it is possible to sin—to deny God and God’s will—without knowledge of God, then the obligation to believe in God is universal, and fully independent of any obligation to any Holder or any system instituted by, for, or among Holders.
Is this statement accurate, or do you disagree, and if so, why?
2 Likes
Not to ignore your response, but @Arrendis and @Mizhara_Del_thul worded my own thoughts way better than any reply I could.
1 Like
The choice to believe in or deny God is universal and both choices have their consequences for doing so, as is given:
“Our Lord visited his flock and saw that all was not good.
Blasphemy and heresy ruled the land.
The Lord punished the sinners and drowned them in their own blood.
But the people of Amarr lived righteously and in fear of God.
Thus they were saved and became God’s chosen.”
- The Scriptures, Book II 2:1
The people of Amarr lived righteously and in fear of God, thus bearing the consequence that they became His Chosen.
The sinners rejected God, and in that rejection allowed blasphemy and heresy to rule the land, thus the consequence was that they were drowned in their own blood.
At present, a distinction has to be made between the inherent sin of the heathen insofar as it exists as they are descended from the peoples who initially rejected God in the past and were thus drowned in their own blood and personal sin of an individual through their own agency and choices.
The heathen always carries with them the inherent sin of their ancestors for their original transgression of disbelief against God. A person, not knowing God, can still live righteously according to God’s teachings even being ignorant of God and thus commit few personal sin as they exist in ignorance of God. However, they still bear with them the inherent sin of their past ancestors. Such people and societies, upon hearing the word of God in Amarr and in accepting the Truths of God find their inherent sins rapidly absolved for they have already lived righteously. A case in point would be the tribes of Assimia who would become Khanid, they still had inherent sins but living good and righteously that stain was quickly absolved for they were so judged to have few personal sins when they accepted God.
The choice to believe in God remains universal, but the obligations to God can be given solely only to Amarr for it was Amarr that was Chosen by God for their righteousness. It is true, one can express belief in God outside of Amarr, but if such belief asserts that they do God’s work then that is a heresy: It is only the Holy Empire of Amarr that was Chosen by God to do His Work, and in order to do His Work as a believer in God then one of the True Faith must submit to the appointed Hierarchy of Creation as it exists in the Empire – and yes, that means fulfilling obligations to those so appointed above oneself in that hierarchy.
Technically, they still have the ability with a TCMC, they just don’t (for most TCMCs) understand what their actual reality is, and thus their judgement is . . . questionable.
Are you crazy ? Who ever heard of such an outlandish colour scheme ?
1 Like
Well, this is just silly. I mean, seriously, the assertion that someone outside of Amarr can believe in God, but they can’t be doing God’s work because only Amarr was Chosen… that denies God the ability to Choose anyone else without telling you. Are you allowed to tell God what he can or can’t do? That doesn’t seem very… subordinate.
Also, if the choice to believe in God remains universal, then the obligation to do so is also universal, as sin is the failure to meet that obligation.
Which, just to bring this back around, would be part of the set of ‘their obligations to our Nation and our Lord’.
2 Likes
Actually, it is not. For one example, the Blood Raiders profess belief in God but do not submit to the Imperial Rite and the Holy Throne. Since they do not submit to God’s Representative as embodied in the Emperors or Empress then their professions of belief in God is false, they do not do God’s work, and are heretics.
As I have already said, free choice to believe in God exists, however if one believes in God then God requires they serve Amarr as His Chosen in obligation to God as all things in Amarr are in service to God.
Actually, you are incorrect.
For a counter-example, the Amarr Orthodoxy profess belief in God, but do not submit to the Kaztropolitan Rite and the Holy Throne. Since they do not submit to God’s Representative as embodied in the Empress Synthia, then their professions of belief in God are false, they do not do God’s work, and are heretics.
2 Likes
Now, there’s a case to be made about whether or not the Amarr believe those individuals are doing God’s work, but to categorically say they cannot be doing God’s work is to limit God. And you haven’t answered the question: Are you allowed to tell God what he can or can’t do?
So then if you don’t believe in God, you have no obligation to God, and thus, cannot sin? That seams kind of… weak.
2 Likes
As given:
And the Lord spake, and said, Lo, my people,
Witness, for I have made the worlds of Heaven;
And these worlds I give to you, My Chosen,
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.
None shall stand higher than you save the Sefrim,
Who serve Me as others shall serve you,
For all things under Me serve one higher;
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.
As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21
God Himself states that Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens directly beneath the Sefrim who serve themselves directly serve God. As such, unless these individuals who are outside of Amarr doing God’s work are the Sefrim themselves then as related by God through Holy Writ, those who are outside the rule of Amarr do not do God’s work.
As already related, if one believes in God then they submit to the rule of Amarr to do His Work as their obligation to God as part of the Rite and Empire.
If one does not believe in God then they exist in sin and are to be indentured as a slave and made to submit to the rule of Amarr under a Holder as their obligation to God.
Now, having said that, since the Imperial Decree regarding the emancipation of ninth generation slaves released them from their obligations to the Lord as it exists as indenture and submission to the rule of Amarr through a Holder under God, the former slave would have the choice as regards belief in God:
-
To believe in God and submit to the rule of Amarr and so fulfill their obligations to God as part of the Rite.
-
To reject God and exist in sin so as to either exile themselves from the Empire or be re-enslaved to submit to the rule of Amarr and fulfill their obligations to God under Holder.
God Himself said X.
God is apparently not allowed to say something else later, without telling the Amarr?
2 Likes
Arrendis, fu. You do know that is how being Chosen works.
Well, maybe you didn’t. But it is.
1 Like
This goes back to the question I raised earlier about having actual proof (not scripture entries, not as an act of faith, actual proof) god said that since it’s based on words written by man. But I’d rather not steal arrendis’ thunder on this one…
3 Likes
Also, for the record:
Bolded part not in evidence. The Imperial Decree contained no such qualifier that we’re aware of, as has already been pointed out.
3 Likes
Some things are just obvious and don’t need a “qualifier” inserted to specifically inform those who don’t get it. No emperor would declare that someone is completely released from all obligations to worship and serve God and Amarr, because all creation is obligated to worship and serve God and Amarr, so it can only be assumed that the statement is specifically in relation to their obligations as slaves. You can call it poorly worded, and it may be, but any Amarr would understand its meaning.
First Prophet, the pedantry on display here.
4 Likes
C’mon, you can’t say you’re shocked.
That said, if people don’t want me getting pedantic and running them in circles, well…
He kinda asked for it, you know? Like, specifically demanded ‘the utmost pedantry’. So I’m obliging. It’s not like I just decided ‘I’m gonna be a total jerk about this for no reason’. I mean, it’s not beyond the scope of what I might do, but in this case, I really didn’t. In fact, all I did was make one sarcastic quip about furries until he broke out the ‘utmost pedantry’ bit.
Someone goes waving a ‘requirement’ like that in my face, they’re gonna get precisely what they demanded. And they’re probably gonna regret it.
4 Likes
Why do you never listen when people ask you not to be that way?
2 Likes