# Ok…NOW I think Eve is dying **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 22, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378 "2023-09-22T16:48:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Rail\_J\_kar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rail_j_kar/32/374429_2.png) [@Rail\_J\_kar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rail_J_kar)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 3:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/185 "2023-10-16T03:02:50Z")
> [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > The objective during a station / or ground base siege isn’t to get resources, but to capture infrastructure. So yes, they’ll leave, but only after the fighting is done. > > Thy won’t, if its anything like dust you’ll also have to pay ISK to replace equipment meaning you’re going to be hopping in and out to resupply and change kits That can all be done with the battle space loaded. For something like station capture, all the logistics will be done by eve players before the fighting starts for vanguard players. If the either side runs out of war fighting material, it could potentially be resupplied, but if not, the fighting will come to an end. > [@Cypherous](#): > > Remember, this is specifically marketed as a PvPvE game so shooting other vanguards is not the only thing you’ll be doing For the game mode shown at fan fest, sure, but that’s not what the territorial control mechanic would entail. It’s a purely pvp game mode. There is no resource extraction. (Except maybe when the battle is entirely over. Perhaps you’d get a share of the loot from everything you killed and a promised reward for taking the station / ground base / other poi – I believe this is how dust handled match rewards.) > [@Cypherous](#): > > when you’re stuck waiting 30 minutes between objectives you’re not going to waste resources just fighting each other, you’ll spread out and wait and do other things while you wait for the cooldown > [@Cypherous](#): > > Right, but outside of shooting the spaceships you’re not going to be doing anything when it comes to sov battles Incorrect, you’re there to take the station itself. That is your purpose for being on location. Shooting at ships in space is just an extra objective. Even if we were going to go with fw style complexes that move your proposed slider for territorial control within vanguard, it would be the same thing. Vanguard players have their own objectives, and anything related to shooting at ships in space would be extra. > [@Cypherous](#): > > TiDi is the issue and the thing that breaks the whole plan … so a 5 minute CD becomes drastically longer just because TiDi is effect in space, so you have to deal with seemingly randomly fluctuating timers … once you involve space and TiDi you start ruining the gaming experience No it doesn’t ruin anything. So what if the timer fluctuates? Eve players have to deal with it. Vanguard players will get used to it too. The draw is fps players get to be apart of something much larger than the little match they’re used to. You can’t do that in any other environment. Imagine running through a room with large windows, and seeing massive space ships firing their massive guns at each other while you’re going about doing your own objectives. I’m not sure how realistic that would be on the performance front (perhaps a togglable option for higher settings and requires the eve client to be installed so vanguard can make use of the game assets.) > [@Cypherous](#): > > there would always need to be a way for pilots to prevent vanguard progress, so it IS going to be bar pushing because that’s the only way it really works fairly For the mechanic we’re talking about, station capture, the vanguard players would only be able to start the attack if EVE players initiated it. Firstly… the station would need to be in structure. And second, EVE players would have to provide the logistics to bring clones to location. It’s a highly integrated game mechanic that requires both games to work. And like I said before, it’s not the only vanguard game mode, so if EVE Online were to fail some how… there would still be vanguard content for players to partake in. And If vanguard fails, the only thing that it effects is station capture… a mechanic that’s not currently in the game (you can currently only blow structures up.) So no, the proposal is already fair. Vanguard players can assault the objectives directly without the need for some sort of progress bar mechanic. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > expecting to win without bringing vanguards is silly. > > And why is that, realistically vanguards couldn’t do anything because a battleship can just toasts entire armies in an instant, you’re realistically never going to be able to get anywhere near the battlefield in the first place lol > > The scales just don’t work What are you smoking? Considering how small boarding pods are, you wouldn’t even be able to lock it before it was already on your ship. If a warclone boarding team boarded your battleship, you’d be screwed unless you had defenses of the same type. We’ll you could self destruct I suppose… but then the objective is already basically complete on the attacker’s side. > [@Cypherous](#): > > yes you can win without logistics cruisers, it will be a hard battle but with enough numbers the logis don’t matter, i’ve seen lots of sleets just kiting around structures and other fleets, how do you think stealth bomber fleets work? Ok then, think of vanguard as a similar style of asymmetrical warfare as stealth bomber fleets. > [@Cypherous](#): > > what makes you think warclones would ever actually stand a hope in hell of even being able to affect the battlefield in the same system? I mean, we were talking about station capture.. so… Yes, they would be able to impact the battle. Likewise, if there was a poi on a planet. Your choices are: pound it into scrap with your ships, or send in the vanguard team to capture it. > [@Cypherous](#): > > we could literally glass planets with ease If the planet isn’t shielded, sure. > [@Cypherous](#): > > It kind of is, remember you said its not a CoD match, meaning its not 10 v10 its basically a free for all which means whichever group logs in the fastest wins by default because they can fill the instance, this issue is resolved with TiDi which allows more people to be in a single system at a time, it doesn’t work for FPS games so each VG instance will have a cap on the number of players that can be present, which is why realtime stuff doesn’t work and the realistic outcome is having to aggregate all actions and then push a bar lol At this point it seems like you’re being deliberately obtuse. The reason for the player limit is due to hardware / software limitations. If you’re launching an attack on infrastructure, you’d get your own player cap, and the defenders would get theirs. Just because it’s “not a cod match” where you’re limited to 30 minutes game time and a manpower ticker for each side, doesn’t mean the devs wouldn’t formulate the assault in a logical way. > [@Cypherous](#): > > you would have 1 instance of the battle with only side A and another instance with only side B, meaning an essential stalemate You entirely misunderstood. See previous paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Wesfahrn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wesfahrn/32/392292_2.png) [@Wesfahrn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wesfahrn)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 4:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/186 "2023-10-16T04:28:10Z")
Guys noone gives about ur walls of text 🙂 what are you even doing. Get a room? ---
**Author:** ![Daekarus\_Helium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daekarus_helium/32/423680_2.png) [@Daekarus\_Helium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daekarus_Helium)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 9:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/187 "2023-10-16T09:46:45Z")
Gotta say I really acknowledge the commitment of some community members though… 😄 ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 9:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/188 "2023-10-16T09:57:34Z")
> [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > That can all be done with the battle space loaded. Unlikely to happen due to how the skill system works, much like how you need a session change for certain things to take effect in EVE > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > (Except maybe when the battle is entirely over. Perhaps you’d get a share of the loot from everything you killed and a promised reward for taking the station / ground base / other poi – I believe this is how dust handled match rewards.) Loot is likely to be persistent much like it is in EVE, so you’ll need to extract to secure that loot, much like pilots have to > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Incorrect, you’re there to take the station itself. That is your purpose for being on location. Shooting at ships in space is just an extra objective. Except you’re never going to be capturing the station, i’m really not sure why you would think there is going to be some sort of capture mechanic for the structure itself, its going to be destruction, sov is about taking the space not the stations inside it, they used to have a capture mechanic for stations and it sucked so it was removed many years ago > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > No it doesn’t ruin anything. So what if the timer fluctuates? Eve players have to deal with it. Vanguard players will get used to it too. EVE players come to expect that sort of thing from EVE, FPS players don’t have that kind of patience, they want things to be happening now, they aren’t going to want to spend 30 minutes just waiting somewhere for a small battle to then play out to rinse and repeat, how much of an attention span do you think FPS players actually have, they struggle to play the objective even in basic objective based games, let alone anything complex > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > You can’t do that in any other environment. Imagine running through a room with large windows, and seeing massive space ships firing their massive guns at each other while you’re going about doing your own objectives. Right but any visuals you see won’t be the actual battle it will be pre-rendered stuff due to things like TiDi existing, won’t look very amazing if you run past a window and see a space battle playing out at 1 frame per minute lol > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > For the mechanic we’re talking about, station capture, the vanguard players would only be able to start the attack if EVE players initiated it. Firstly… the station would need to be in structure. And second, EVE players would have to provide the logistics to bring clones to location. For the mechanic you’re talking about, i don’t see that being how the game actually ends up however > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > a mechanic that’s not currently in the game And one that used to be in the game but was removed because it was bad > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > What are you smoking? Considering how small boarding pods are, you wouldn’t even be able to lock it before it was already on your ship. Smartbombs exist my boy, and smaller ships can easily lock them, you can lock a capsule in a second, and a boarding pod would have to be much larger than that and be easy enough to intercept, realistically you’re never getting anywhere near any space objective in a boarding pod > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Ok then, think of vanguard as a similar style of asymmetrical warfare as stealth bomber fleets. No because its not even remotely the same > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Your choices are: pound it into scrap with your ships, or send in the vanguard team to capture it. Yup and in 99.9% of scenarios, anything on a planet is getting glassed because it can’t compare to any of the orbitals we already have > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > If the planet isn’t shielded, sure. Thats fine, because none of them are lol Planetary shielding doesn’t exist here, and there is no shield in existence thats going to stop a capsuleer fleet from glassing your planet if they wanted to At this point you’ll just have to wait and be disappointed by the mechnics > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > You entirely misunderstood. See previous paragraph. No because i understand how games actually work, you’re not going to have a 20v20 battle decide the outcome of a station lol ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2023, 12:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/189 "2023-10-16T12:30:56Z")
You keep on and on presenting a **false** paradigm of Eve being a free game with some sort of unfair advantageous subscription component. That is totally ass backwards and the truth is the reverse. Eve is a subscription based game that allows a limited ‘free’ usage…which is really just a _trial_ period. Heck, the ‘free’ bit is not really even such anyway…as _someone_ is paying for all those ‘free’ accounts. And yes, its all those people _paying_ for Eve that are actually **subsidising** all those ‘free’ accounts that have the sheer temerity to wail about ‘unfairness’. Me paying for others to play for free is what is genuinely ‘unfair’. God knows how you twist it round the other way. ---
**Author:** ![Rail\_J\_kar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rail_j_kar/32/374429_2.png) [@Rail\_J\_kar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rail_J_kar)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 1:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/190 "2023-10-24T01:38:41Z")
> [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > Incorrect, you’re there to take the station itself. That is your purpose for being on location. Shooting at ships in space is just an extra objective. > > Except you’re never going to be capturing the station, > [@Cypherous](#): > > i don’t see that being how the game actually ends up however You can keep making these assertions, but it’s literally in the design concept for the game. Hilmar had an interview recently (I believe it was right after fanfest) where he said orgs are going to need to have both capsuleers and warclones, or they will be at a massive disadvantage. > **[Galactic Ripple Effects in EVE Online with Hilmar Veigar Pétursson | The AIAS...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BdhiUVv618%3Ft%3D3373)** > > Ted Price chats with Hilmar Veigar Pétursson, CEO of CCP Games the makers of EVE Online. Together they reflect on 20 years of EVE Online; they discuss the so... There’s the time stamp from the relevant quote. (56:14) > [@Cypherous](#): > > i’m really not sure why you would think there is going to be some sort of capture mechanic for the structure itself Because that’s the space where warclones in sov make the most sense. Other than fighting over ground structures. > [@Cypherous](#): > > sov is about taking the space not the stations inside it It’s all analogous. And once corp / alliance own pois on planets become reality, those too will also be analogous to sov. > [@Cypherous](#): > > they used to have a capture mechanic for stations and it sucked so it was removed many years ago > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > a mechanic that’s not currently in the game > > And one that used to be in the game but was removed because it was bad It wasn’t removed because taking structures was bad… it was removed because CCP needed a way to remove structures from space; the proliferation was becoming a problem. If blowing up the structures is still the easier method, it will still be the go-to way of dealing with structures, but giving players the option of taking them for themselves isn’t inherently bad. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > Your choices are: pound it into scrap with your ships, or send in the vanguard team to capture it. > > Yup and in 99.9% of scenarios, anything on a planet is getting glassed because it can’t compare to any of the orbitals we already have > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > If the planet isn’t shielded, sure. > > Thats fine, because none of them are lol > > Planetary shielding doesn’t exist here, and there is no shield in existence thats going to stop a capsuleer fleet from glassing your planet if they wanted to Strontium literally makes structures invulnerable. So… you’re just incorrect. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > (Except maybe when the battle is entirely over. Perhaps you’d get a share of the loot from everything you killed and a promised reward for taking the station / ground base / other poi – I believe this is how dust handled match rewards.) > > Loot is likely to be persistent much like it is in EVE, so you’ll need to extract to secure that loot, much like pilots have to For the game mode shared at fanfest, sure, but I doubt they’ll make people pick up all the loot from a captured battlefield once that mechanic comes into play. (And before you once more assert, without evidence, that Vanguard wont allow you to capture structures / pois - or be impactful within the greater New Eden space, go watch that interview with Hilmar.) > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > No it doesn’t ruin anything. So what if the timer fluctuates? Eve players have to deal with it. Vanguard players will get used to it too. > > EVE players come to expect that sort of thing from EVE, FPS players don’t have that kind of patience, If players don’t want to engage with sov, they wont. There are other game modes for them to play… just as it is in EVE as well. > [@Cypherous](#): > > they want things to be happening now, they aren’t going to want to spend 30 minutes just waiting somewhere for a small battle to then play out to rinse and repeat, how much of an attention span do you think FPS players actually have, they struggle to play the objective even in basic objective based games, let alone anything complex You’re making a bunch of assertions that have no basis in reality. Certainly there are some people who don’t have patience, but there are a ton of others who do. Not only that, but fps players don’t just play fps games… they also play others games… like mmos… where you have to sit around and wait for objectives… or for your raid group to form up. Furthermore, there are games like arma (which is an fps,) that are mostly sit around and wait. And the players who play that sort of game tend to be good at it since a lot of them are combat vets. > [@Cypherous](#): > > i understand how games actually work, > [@Cypherous](#): > > any visuals you see won’t be the actual battle it will be pre-rendered stuff due to things like TiDi existing, won’t look very amazing if you run past a window and see a space battle playing out at 1 frame per minute lol Another assertion not based in reality. FPS is client side. If you’re having trouble with that during a fleet fight, it’s because your computer sucks, not because of tidi. A real time visual would merely have events play out in slow motion. (ie: laser blasts lasting an entire minute instead of a few seconds.) That said, to save on frame rate, CCP could choose to only render capitals beyond a certain range, and to not render anything at all once it gets even further out. And… it could be something in the graphics settings, so only people with lower end systems wouldn’t be affected by it. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > That can all be done with the battle space loaded. > > Unlikely to happen due to how the skill system works, much like how you need a session change for certain things to take effect in EVE Hey look, another false assertion. EVE has several ways to change a ship fitting in space. But even if it didn’t, it’s irrelevant. Vanguard will be using a different client, different server code, and potentially even a different “skill system” (since it wont be an EVE Online character in Vanguard.) So they could do something similar to what DE does with Warframe in their open world environments. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > Considering how small boarding pods are, you wouldn’t even be able to lock it before it was already on your ship. > > … a boarding pod would have to be much larger than that and be easy enough to intercept, realistically you’re never getting anywhere near any space objective in a boarding pod Boarding pods should be about the size of a capsule (maybe even smaller.) There’s no need for a warp drive… so it can fit a microwarp on top of be fired from a ship based cannon. Here’s what they look like (43 second mark) : > **[Project Nova - Teaser Trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch/AXEo8v6MXGM?t=43)** > > Project Nova is the upcoming dark and thrilling first-person co-op shooter set in the dystopian sci-fi universe of EVE Online. Project Nova features tactical... > [@Cypherous](#): > > Smartbombs exist my boy, and smaller ships can easily lock them What you’re basically describing is locking up bombs to shoot them. Sure it can be done, but that doesn’t stop people from using stealth bombers in fleet fights. And they even find success while doing it. And sure, you can use counters like smart bombs or defender missiles when facing off against a missile ship. That doesn’t stop people from bringing drakes to a fleet fight. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > think of vanguard as a similar style of asymmetrical warfare as stealth bomber fleets. > > No because its not even remotely the same In the context of what we were talking about, asymmetrical warfare, they do fill a similar gorilla warfare role. You even made that more clear when you said how it’s possible to shoot boarding pods… just like you can shoot bombs from stealth bombers. > [@Cypherous](#): > > At this point you’ll just have to wait and be disappointed by the mechnics That’s always a possibility for sure, but why live life like that: being all negative about stuff? I’m looking forward to Vanguard, and the obvious potential it has for the greater game world. ---
**Author:** ![Bargemancer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bargemancer/32/293317_2.png) [@Bargemancer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bargemancer)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 2:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/191 "2023-10-24T02:33:28Z")
what really hurts is seeing these uninteresting shooters and other non-eve things and realizing it’s all being funded by our “taxes” (omega subscriptions). Rather than being spent on the game we’re paying for. It hurts as much as watching all my tax dollars disappear into the cavernous asshole of military spending and foreign bribe-- i mean aid, while our infrastructure falls apart domestically and people can’t afford to live. ---
**Author:** ![Rail\_J\_kar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rail_j_kar/32/374429_2.png) [@Rail\_J\_kar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rail_J_kar)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/192 "2023-10-25T01:47:02Z")
Nah, the fps will be fantastic. And once they include it in the sov / capture mechanics, it should help make it be less of a grind for EVE players, therefore improving the base game. Also, what you pay them for your account belongs to them, they don’t have to reinvest any of that money back into the game if they don’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![Misanthra](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/misanthra/32/391383_2.png) [@Misanthra](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Misanthra)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 2:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/193 "2023-10-25T02:17:43Z")
> [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Also, what you pay them for your account belongs to them, they don’t have to reinvest any of that money back into the game if they don’t want to. I hold of judgement till its seen. Good news is its a low bar here. Don’t be as bad as OW2 (overwatch 2). that wow sub time paid for was put into the big pot to help make that was irksome. Irksome because it was trash lol. Companies have money makers fund other ideas/ips. that’s how it goes. It takes money to make stuff. All I ask is that it be good. Or at least kind of decent lol. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Von\_Castel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_von_castel/32/439576_2.png) [@Annah\_Von\_Castel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Von_Castel)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 9:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/194 "2023-10-25T09:27:48Z")
The only thing I think that’s will be a average fps in the ultra full fps market where really multi billion company fight to have the monopole… At the beginning some people wrote about company strategy learned in business school etc… I’m a teacher among the top european Busines school (forget that we really don’t care) and many things bothering me - ultra competitive market - no influent community in fps (console is the holy grail) - console player don’t care about eve online - no marketing strategy (can be 20% of the budget) and start 1y and half before the launching (mini) - what the differentiation to not beeing drowned - won’t be free because they business model dépend of MRR - the pc player eve is a really really tiny drop of water and the desire and skills of the generic eve’s player is the opposite of fps experience… And I’m not taking about the investor due diligence. -CCP failed in every way possible for each project outside from eve - which VC decided to invest. For how many share and ROI - I’m really surprised that investor accepted the founder ceo to still leads the company because (only my point of view, the c level should leave their job since long time) - the fail of dust because of the ‘official story’ ps3 and ps4 transition (for people working in joint venture agreement or FSE I let then laughing and answering on that héhé) - invest in fps market with the Microsoft danger with the fusion with Activision blizzard it really suicide strategy. - the actual decreases of active player is during the last 5 years is a true dilemma (I even don’t know how many people playing irl with multi boxing… 9k? 10k?) of course I would love playing a fps in eve univers. But it’s practically impossible to be sustainable. And ps : wis was more dangerous for my computer than crysis 😬 but I was really happy to see my character. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Order\_Enforcer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/new_order_enforcer/32/387867_2.png) [@New\_Order\_Enforcer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/New_Order_Enforcer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 10:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/195 "2023-10-25T10:22:42Z")
They dont define it as an independent new game but as a module: “EVE Vanguard is an innovative new FPS module, connected to the EVE universe from Day One” ---
**Author:** ![Rail\_J\_kar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rail_j_kar/32/374429_2.png) [@Rail\_J\_kar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rail_J_kar)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 10:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/196 "2023-10-25T10:33:44Z")
> [@Annah\_Von\_Castel](#): > > I was really happy to see my character. Isn’t this really what it’s all about? CCP has mentioned in the past, when they changed the character creation until after the tutorial, that retention fell off a cliff. That would indicate, if players could get out of their ships and walk around (in a meaningful way,) player retention should increase from where it is now. > [@Annah\_Von\_Castel](#): > > the actual decreases of active player is during the last 5 years is a true dilemma I suspect this has more to do with the tastes of the general public changing, since EVE as it is currently is a much better game than it was years ago. Also, EVE Online is seen as a old man’s game, so it’s not as attractive to the younger generation. Creating a new ip to market is the smart choice. > [@Annah\_Von\_Castel](#): > > won’t be free because they business model dépend of MRR Vanguard will share the same account as EVE Online. I’m not sure what benefits Omega will grant players, but hopefully it wont be relevant in combat, or the game will just get called p2w and be doa. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Order\_Enforcer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/new_order_enforcer/32/387867_2.png) [@New\_Order\_Enforcer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/New_Order_Enforcer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 12:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/197 "2023-10-25T12:50:58Z")
BTW this is CCP burning money on another failed project. They were never able to pull anything successful beyond EVE. Someone is going to try an alpha version (which they call beta) , get bored after some days, and the project will die in irrelevance. ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 1:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/198 "2023-10-25T13:23:51Z")
> [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > You can keep making these assertions, but it’s literally in the design concept for the game. Hilmar had an interview recently (I believe it was right after fanfest) where he said orgs are going to need to have both capsuleers and warclones, or they will be at a massive disadvantage. And until that actually surfaces i am going to continue to point out how it won’t work the way you think it will, pointing to an interview where hilmar thinks something should be important doesn’t really mean much when it comes to actual game design, and if i had 100isk for each time something CCP had said they were going to do never actually turned out that way, i would be buying a geri 😛 > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Because that’s the space where warclones in sov make the most sense. Other than fighting over ground structures. And there is a reason station capture mechanics were removed from the game years ago, remember, we already had this and it wasn’t popular > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > It’s all analogous. And once corp / alliance own pois on planets become reality, those too will also be analogous to sov. I press x to doubt, you’re free to keep huffing that hopium though 🙂 > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > It wasn’t removed because taking structures was bad… it was removed because CCP needed a way to remove structures from space; the proliferation was becoming a problem. If blowing up the structures is still the easier method, it will still be the go-to way of dealing with structures, but giving players the option of taking them for themselves isn’t inherently bad. And that doesn’t solve the perceived problem of proliferation, not that i actually think this is a real problem anyway > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Strontium literally makes structures invulnerable. So… you’re just incorrect. Not sure what you think that has to do with protecting an entire planet there bud, so no i’m not incorrect, there are NO planetary shields that exist in the game, because a POS isn’t a planet > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > For the game mode shared at fanfest, sure, but I doubt they’ll make people pick up all the loot from a captured battlefield once that mechanic comes into play. Sure they will, if you don’t pick it up you don’t get it, the same as you do in EVE, if i blow up a ship the loot doesn’t magically appear in my hangar after the battle has concluded, the same will be true here and is also generally the same in any game where looting happens > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > (And before you once more assert, without evidence, that Vanguard wont allow you to capture structures / pois - or be impactful within the greater New Eden space, go watch that interview with Hilmar.) I’m still going to assert it, because it won’t test well, vanguards can’t really have a major impact just due to the latency issue and because TIDI breaks any interaction, i very much doubt hilmar has actualyl considered the actual complexity involved here, it sounds like a cool idea on paper but he isn’t the one who has to make it actually work lol, wanting something really badly doesn’t make it viable or possible, i mean lets not forget how many decades ago they teased us with atmospheric flight which never surfaced because it wouldn’t work > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > If players don’t want to engage with sov, they wont. There are other game modes for them to play… just as it is in EVE as well. Sure, and when most of them don’t want to deal with TiDi timers they won’t bother playing that mode, which then means it won’t be useful because of a lack of engagement and we end up with CQ 2.0 😛 > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > You’re making a bunch of assertions that have no basis in reality. So prove it > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Certainly there are some people who don’t have patience, but there are a ton of others who do. No, there are a small group of players who will, i’m just going to point you at literally every single game that has the option to speed up a timer by paying money or using another resource and ask you how many people actually wait for that timer instead of just accelerating it People already complain about having to wait for skills because the average gamer these days has no patience, why do you think most games are made with instant gratification in mind > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Not only that, but fps players don’t just play fps games… they also play others games… like mmos… where you have to sit around and wait for objectives… or for your raid group to form up. Yes and in those games while you’re waiting for your group to form, you can literally go and do anything else ingame, and there is also a significant difference in waiting for your group to form, which will still have to happen in VG anyway and getting to the final boss only to be told you now need to sit there and wait for 30 minutes before anything can happen before the raid can end And i don’t see most people having the patience to wait for that, CCP will see that once they actually start playtesting it too, having ideas and goals is great, but until you actually start testing them the flaws don’t generally show up, the vision and the reality are going to end up vastly different > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Furthermore, there are games like arma You’re going to use a game with a small playerbase as an example of something that the masses will accept as fine? > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Another assertion not based in reality. FPS is client side. If you’re having trouble with that during a fleet fight, it’s because your computer sucks, not because of tidi. I think you missed the point there bud Yes its rendered clientside, but if you’re expecting to look out of the window and see the fleet fight that is CURRENTLY HAPPENING you’re not going to get a realtime view when TiDi kicks in, meaning you’re going to have to be shown pre-rendered visuals if you want to see anything other than a slideshow The machine you’re using will have zero impact on how fast the simulation in space is playing out, 100% TiDi is a literal space slideshow even on the most powerful PC on the planet because it slows every action down so it has time to process them, so if you wanted to see the actual battle out of the window its going to be rendered at about 1 frame per second just because thats how fast the simulation will be running in space Its not about the users performance its about what speed the actual space simulation is running, you do know how TiDi works right? > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Hey look, another false assertion. EVE has several ways to change a ship fitting in space. Sure, and all of those methods require you to be carrying all those modules on you, are you expecting a vanguard to be walking around with 12 sets of armour and weaponry on them at all times? So yeah realistically you’re going to have set loadouts that you can either only change by respawning or by leaving the battle and re-entering it, neither of which is really ideal, you might get a limited number of weapon options but i don’t imagine you’ll be changing anything major in terms of your kit without leaving or dying > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > Boarding pods should be about the size of a capsule (maybe even smaller.) Based on what? A pod only has to accommodate a barely clothed human being without any items, a boarding pod needs to contain enough space for a fully armed and full armoured soldier, the hardware required to penetrate a ships armour or the parts required to interface and dock with said ship, so realistically i would imagine that a warclones boarding pod would actually be the same size as a capsule, so you’re still talking about a 1 second lock time for any kind of interceptor or destroyer > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > What you’re basically describing is locking up bombs to shoot them. Sure it can be done, but that doesn’t stop people from using stealth bombers in fleet fights. And they even find success while doing it. Not really no, you can’t actually lock bombs, i’m talking about ship based smartbombs, which don’t even require a lock and would 100% do enough damage to obliterate an entire wave of boarding pods in a single activation lol > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > just like you can shoot bombs from stealth bombers. And i’m still pretty sure you can’t lock a bomb thats in flight, where are you getting your information from? > [@New\_Order\_Enforcer](#): > > They dont define it as an independent new game but as a module: Cool but nobody outside of CCP defines it as such and as it won’t require you to be playing EVE nor even have an EVE character at all everyone is just going to call it a new game > [@New\_Order\_Enforcer](#): > > Someone is going to try an alpha version (which they call beta) , get bored after some days, and the project will die in irrelevance. Sadly this is likely on the money, it would explain why they aren’t really letting you use your capsuleer name, it makes the DB cleanup after nuking the game a lot easier just like it did with dust bunnies Just the lack of being able to use my own name is enough to make me avoid this like the plague ---
**Author:** ![Misanthra](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/misanthra/32/391383_2.png) [@Misanthra](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Misanthra)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2023, 12:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/199 "2023-10-26T00:06:15Z")
> [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > I suspect this has more to do with the tastes of the general public changing, since EVE as it is currently is a much better game than it was years ago. Also, EVE Online is seen as a old man’s game, so it’s not as attractive to the younger generation. Many mmo’s have population issues really. its the genre that needs some mindsets not all players have these days. Even wow lost so many subs they stopped reporting them as far back as WoD exapc. Now they use sale data. and even blizzard had to admit DF (dragonflight) didn’t shatter prior sales numbers. And they have had more sales and free play try us periods in jsut a year than in the past. And that sale data includes services lol. Is that money a new new player? Is that money a dude who bought a faction/race change and a token? and some mmo folks may wander. When the dark ages of eve were comint (scarcity and such)…I went to azeroth. Not gb2wow…it was actually a never played it, lets try it move lol. Now I wander back in the eve pond again as certain wow (wrath version) goals have been met. Catching up on changes with an open mind to see how november sparks some fire to make it more full time. My interest would be more the actual pirate affilations. NGL…the fps may be tried too. I mean its there, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2023, 12:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/200 "2023-10-26T00:59:34Z")
On Steam there are a few mining games though in 1st or 3rd person and sort of just hoping that the new planet mode has mining in New Eden. Fingers crossed as I am a Miner! ---
**Author:** ![Rail\_J\_kar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rail_j_kar/32/374429_2.png) [@Rail\_J\_kar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rail_J_kar)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/201 "2023-10-26T01:35:26Z")
> [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > You’re making a bunch of assertions that have no basis in reality. > > So prove it I already did. If you don’t have the intellect to understand the arguments, I can’t help you. > [@Cypherous](#): > > most of them don’t want to deal with TiDi timers they won’t bother playing that mode, which then means it won’t be useful because of a lack of engagement and we end up with CQ 2.0 😛 Tidi wont affect the fps module. It will be on separate server architecture. And even if there’s weapons firing at capsuleers from vanguard, the only thing affected will be that specific weapon emplacement. Would be pretty cool if there was an audio announcement in Vanguard when the weapon array fires… and also if it destroys a target. “Weapon charging. Firing. Target Destroyed.” Then you could give the vanguard players killmails too… for ships they were responsible for destroying with the arrays. 😃 > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > Furthermore, there are games like arma > > You’re going to use a game with a small playerbase as an example of something that the masses will accept as fine? Sov will always be a niche activity. The stories will draw people in, and the masses will enjoy the more “instant gratification” game modes. > [@Cypherous](#): > > every single game that has the option to speed up a timer by paying money Those games are garbage and are mostly played by children, so I very much doubt the majority of their players pay to speed up the timers. > [@Cypherous](#): > > Yes and in those games while you’re waiting for your group to form, you can literally go and do anything else ingame, And you think that can’t happen with Vanguard? The players exist as an “infomorph”… which means lore wise / game design wise players can teleport to the action when it pops off. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > Another assertion not based in reality. FPS is client side. If you’re having trouble with that during a fleet fight, it’s because your computer sucks, not because of tidi. > > I think you missed the point there bud > > Yes its rendered clientside, but if you’re expecting to look out of the window and see the fleet fight that is CURRENTLY HAPPENING you’re not going to get a realtime view when TiDi kicks in, meaning you’re going to have to be shown pre-rendered visuals if you want to see anything other than a slideshow You’re just showing yourself not understanding how this stuff works. Tidi slows server activity down to allow the server to process everything happening. In the EVE client it also shows the server acknowledging the action so players don’t continue trying to activate modules that seem unresponsive. That doesn’t prevent the Vanguard client from reading the position of ships from the server and then displaying those ships moving and guns firing with local, client based animations. They’ll be moving and firing in slow motion, but it wont be a slide show. You’re the one who said things would drop to 1 fps, which is client side behavioral language (ie: not affected by tidi.) > [@Cypherous](#): > > The machine you’re using will have zero impact on how fast the simulation in space is playing out, 100% TiDi is a literal space slideshow even on the most powerful PC on the planet because it slows every action down so it has time to process them, It’s like you understand half of the picture. Tidi affects the position of everything and the various actions taking place, but your computer still has to render everything in the environment. If you’re experiencing a “slide show” that’s local frame rate and it means your computer isn’t able to render the environment fast enough to give you smooth experience. This is the reason your corp and alliance leaders will tell you to turn off brackets when you’re in one of those fleet fights, to give your computer a bit less to render. > [@Cypherous](#): > > so if you wanted to see the actual battle out of the window its going to be rendered at about 1 frame per second just because thats how fast the simulation will be running in space No. Frame rate of rendering is not the same as the server side simulation speed. The former is client side, and the later is server side. If you do actually understand this stuff, I’m sorry, but you’re not using the correct words to express your knowledge. But considering how you don’t seem to understand how you could watch the battle unfold in slow motion without it being “1 fps” I’m guessing you don’t actually understand the tech involved. > [@Cypherous](#): > > you do know how TiDi works right? Yes, but you don’t seem to. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > Hey look, another false assertion. EVE has several ways to change a ship fitting in space. > > Sure, and all of those methods require you to be carrying all those modules on you, are you expecting a vanguard to be walking around with 12 sets of armour and weaponry on them at all times? This is irrelevant to the point made. You were saying it was a technological limitation (due to the “skill system” employed by CCP in EVE Online that would require a session change.) Game design wise for Vanguard, you can easily have a cache of weaponry or equipment in the loaded environment… such as a landed ship, a drop pod, or a base of some sort. As for the ui to change the loadout, CCP already demonstrated that in their demo, when the player manufactured ammo. > [@Cypherous](#): > > realistically you’re going to have set loadouts that you can either only change by respawning or by leaving the battle and re-entering it, No, that’s not necessary. Even game design wise, if the player doesn’t have a piece of gear at the physical location, it can be delivered as long as it’s on the planet or at the poco. That doesn’t mean the player also can’t have prefit loadouts ready to go, but it’s not a technical limitation. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > Boarding pods should be about the size of a capsule (maybe even smaller.) > > Based on what? Based on the video you likely didn’t watch, that is official lore since it was produced by CCP. > [@Cypherous](#): > > so you’re still talking about a 1 second lock time for any kind of interceptor or destroyer Destroyers don’t last long in big fleet fights, especially destroyers that are fit for lock speed, and their 35-40km lock range isn’t long enough to really be a concern. 'Dictors are more concerned about dropping their bubble and bouncing than looking for pods or boarding pods to destroy. 'Ceptors likewise aren’t going to be focusing on intercepting boarding pods. Their job is to lock down a big target… likely the target that is having a boarding pod shot at it. > [@Cypherous](#): > > Not really no, you can’t actually lock bombs, i’m talking about ship based smartbombs, You can lock bombs from stealth bombers, which is what I was talking about, since it is about the size of a boarding pod. I’m aware you cant lock a smart bomb. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > just like you can shoot bombs from stealth bombers. > > And i’m still pretty sure you can’t lock a bomb thats in flight, where are you getting your information from? I’ve done it. Why wouldn’t you be able to lock it? You can basically lock anything that shows up in your overview as long as the server recognizes it’s there. Most people don’t bother because bombs tend to come in waves and people are more focused on not getting wrecked by them. They’re also fast moving, only exist on your overview for a short while, (the session timer will make that even shorter,) and you’re usually forced on doing something else when they appear. Just. Like. Boarding. Pods. > [@Cypherous](#): > > which don’t even require a lock and would 100% do enough damage to obliterate an entire wave of boarding pods in a single activation lol Maybe. Game design wise, I think that would be a good counter, but it doesn’t mean the player would be successful at the timing. Not to mention, how many people actually fit smart bombs to their ships? I know it’s not overly rare, but it’s also not a common module to add to a fleet ship. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@New\_Order\_Enforcer](#): > > > > They dont define it as an independent new game but as a module: > > Cool but nobody outside of CCP defines it as such and as it won’t require you to be playing EVE nor even have an EVE character at all everyone is just going to call it a new game It does require an EVE account. There’s a bunch of activities within the EVE client that are unrelated… you don’t even have to be in space to do them all. Is Project Discovery a separate game? Is industry? Just because they share the same client doesn’t make it any more related to the game environment than Vanguard will be. > [@Cypherous](#): > > that doesn’t solve the perceived problem of proliferation The problem was solved with the addition of the destruction mechanic. Adding back the ability to take structures and pois with Vanguard wont remove that mechanic. > [@Cypherous](#): > > we already had this and it wasn’t popular And no, once again, the ability to take structures wasn’t removed because it was bad, it was removed due to proliferation of structures. > [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > > > Strontium literally makes structures invulnerable. So… you’re just incorrect. > > Not sure what you think that has to do with protecting an entire planet there bud, so no i’m not incorrect, there are NO planetary shields that exist in the game, because a POS isn’t a planet Is it really so hard to understand that the same tech that exists in space can also be used planet side? Dust soldiers even had personal shields, so it’s not like the tech doesn’t work in atmosphere. Lore wise, if I’m remembering correctly, the events that set off the Gallente / Caldari civil war was due to a explosion that happened inside a city. That explosion was magnified by the city’s shield, since the pressure couldn’t escape. Generally speaking, the planets in game don’t have any mechanics associated with them, because they’re just background features you can literally fly your ship through. But if we get actual in game content related to planets, you can pretty much expect, at the very least, Amarr will have a planetary shield. > [@Cypherous](#): > > until that actually surfaces i am going to continue to point out how it won’t work … I press x to doubt, you’re free to keep huffing that hopium though … I’m still going to assert it, because it won’t test well, vanguards can’t really have a major impact just due to the latency issue and because TIDI breaks any interaction, So negative. I’ve already explained the latency issue (defenders advantage) and as I said before, tidi will have zero impact on vanguard gameplay, except for those specific elements that cross over. In other words, your concerns are a non issue. > [@Cypherous](#): > > wanting something really badly doesn’t make it viable or possible, i mean lets not forget how many decades ago they teased us with atmospheric flight which never surfaced because it wouldn’t work Atmospheric flight may not work in the EVE client, but we had it in Dust and we’ll likely experience it in Vanguard again once they add vehicles. As for space to planet transition… I’m still holding out hope for some planetary content for the in space portion of the game in EVE Online. 100km incremental strength warp disruption field from the surface of the planet. Static pois on the surface and in atmosphere. And if there’s a Vanguard fight going on somewhere in one of these locations, the ability to reign down phased plasma on their heads. 😃 Or just the civilians, if it’s just a poi without any Vanguard activity. > [@Cypherous](#): > > Just the lack of being able to use my own name is enough to make me avoid this like the plague You’re being silly. It seems like all your negativity just stems from you being salty about not being able to use the same character name. ---
**Author:** ![Misanthra](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/misanthra/32/391383_2.png) [@Misanthra](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Misanthra)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/202 "2023-10-26T01:47:57Z")
> [@Rail\_J\_kar](#): > > You’re being silly. It seems like all your negativity just stems from you being salty about not being able to use the same character name. Alt codes, if they work in eve (never tested it personally) Or a last name. thanks to wow time I appreciate last name. Its when you for giggles go up to 3 alt chars and the name is still taken you go who the hell makes a game with no last name (or a name that allow spaces in general). ---
**Author:** ![Rail\_J\_kar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rail_j_kar/32/374429_2.png) [@Rail\_J\_kar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rail_J_kar)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2023, 1:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/203 "2023-10-26T01:57:33Z")
> [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](#): > > On Steam there are a few mining games though in 1st or 3rd person and sort of just hoping that the new planet mode has mining in New Eden. > > Fingers crossed as I am a Miner! It would be cool to get a bit better mining simulation in both EVE Online, and Vanguard. Planets or moons with rings should be able to be mined (the recent star citizen demo showed some pretty impressive renders of the planetary rings.) Belts should be full belts circling the star (probably a bit less dense than what we currently have) and be incorporated into the exploration system. So when a player scans down a mining anom, it would be located in one of these belts and have better ore than is normally found in the system. Players running mining missions could also have their missions be located in these belts. It would also be nice to get an active mining mode. That wouldn’t prevent people from mining as they currently are, but active play should be rewarded. Perhaps people who engage in active mining would find better ore periodically among the veldspar. CCP might even eventually toss on a vanguard addon to the in space mining. I’m not entirely sure why they’d do that… but the visceral mining experience from Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous look pretty great. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Von\_Castel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_von_castel/32/439576_2.png) [@Annah\_Von\_Castel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Von_Castel)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2023, 2:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378/204 "2023-10-26T02:17:42Z")
Please cypherous and rail, use private message, we are totally drowned by your message… And I say that with respect. I even think you killed the post 😂 [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378.md?page=9) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ok-now-i-think-eve-is-dying/421378.md?page=11)