# On slavery and the Reclaiming of souls **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [December 16, 2019, 12:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775 "2019-12-16T12:51:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astaire_quatrevaux/32/278706_2.png) [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astaire_Quatrevaux)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 4:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/21 "2019-12-17T04:28:37Z")
Then you disagree that all humans should have the ability to be free? I’m not surprised. You lot just usually do a better job of dressing it up. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/22 "2019-12-17T07:14:40Z")
In my experience _most_ Amarr don’t dress it up at all. Slavery _in general_ not a moral issue for them, it’s just a fact of life, and our making it a moral issue tends to register as sensible as dunno, making the case that color blue is always and objectively ugly regardless of use or context. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 9:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/23 "2019-12-17T09:11:59Z")
> [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](#): > > Then you disagree that all humans should have the ability to be free? I certainly would hope that Lady Saronu disagrees with such a nonsensical notion. ---
**Author:** ![Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astaire_quatrevaux/32/278706_2.png) [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astaire_Quatrevaux)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/24 "2019-12-17T13:02:40Z")
What’s nonsensical about it? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/25 "2019-12-17T13:11:19Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > And I answer to a liege who could have me killed without explanation, neither eventuality seems likely. Neither one seems like a particularly _ethical_ thing for a society to allow, _either_. Thank you for illustrating precisely how… _lacking_… yours is. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 1:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/26 "2019-12-17T13:27:36Z")
> [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](#): > > What’s nonsensical about it? Basically, Mr. Quatrevaux, there’s no actual agreement between societies either in the existence of “fundamental human rights” (neither the State nor Empire believes such a thing, and frankly even the Republic seems to be thinking it over) or that, if such things did exist, “Liberty” is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/27 "2019-12-17T13:30:31Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > “fundamental human rights” To be honest, I am not sure that is a meaningful concept, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astaire_quatrevaux/32/278706_2.png) [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astaire_Quatrevaux)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/28 "2019-12-17T15:50:31Z")
Grief above and below. It’s not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Jade\_Blackwind](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jade_blackwind/32/197719_2.png) [@Jade\_Blackwind](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jade_Blackwind)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/29 "2019-12-17T19:08:29Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > > “fundamental human rights” > > To be honest, I am not sure that is a meaningful concept, myself. It’s a very nice concept in one’s mind, but a dangerous illusion in reality. Freedom, even in small things, is rarely given. It is taken and kept in conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Nicoletta\_Mithra](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicoletta_mithra/32/378065_2.png) [@Nicoletta\_Mithra](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicoletta_Mithra)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/30 "2019-12-17T22:22:37Z")
> [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](#): > > What’s nonsensical about it? Honestly, that all people should _not_ have the ability to be maximally free is a maxim that practically is shared between all human societies. All societies regulate the freedom of their members and all civilized societies are prepared to take basic freedoms away from certain members. The penal systems are a prime example. But there are also other cases: People with mental and/or emotional disorders, for example. Another example: Children usually aren’t free in the way adults are. The key to understand this fact is that a society is always instable, if it hands the ability to exercise freedoms to peoples that are unable to make responsible use of such freedoms. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2019, 12:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/31 "2019-12-18T00:40:18Z")
Were it possible, there is a vanity in each of us that would prefer the pacts binding others did not bind us; that would see ourselves as the centre of the world’s affairs. It is not in liberty, but in restraint that we bring honour to ourselves and our people. I understand, and profoundly disagree with the primacy you place on liberty. There is little more dangerous than your maxim, freedom for all; duty is an embankment that, once broken, gives way to duplicitous fermentation of the private interest of individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Merdaneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merdaneth/32/460803_2.png) [@Merdaneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merdaneth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/32 "2019-12-22T20:08:11Z")
Ms. Blackwind, thank you for your passionate address. I have no doubt that you have good intentions, but I fear your education is somewhat lacking. Enslavement does not take away a person’s free will. If that were true, slaves would not able to stage any escapes. What about a slave that sabotages their work assignments, according to your argument that would be that will of their new master? While you certainly seem to know more about Amarr religion than your average unwashed barbarian, you fail to understand that free will is _critical_ to achieving enlightenment. Faith comes from inside, it is a spiritual growth. Faith is not a string of empty words spoken at the crack of a whip. Bones only grow strong when needing to bear weight, muscles only develop when you stretch them to their limits, only harsh tests bring out the true mark of a man. Overcoming hardships grows and strengthens the soul, do you not agree? You confusion is further underlined by your statement that it is every’s slave’s duty to resist and rise. How can they resist and rise when they have been stripped of free will? Choose one or the other please. Additionally, by saying ‘every slave has a duty’, are you not trying to rob them of their free will yourself. Are you not telling them what they should do regardless of what they want? Sound like you want to be their new master instead? Will you force them to resist at gunpoint? I think you and me are much alike. I’m just better educated. ---
**Author:** ![Merdaneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merdaneth/32/460803_2.png) [@Merdaneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merdaneth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/33 "2019-12-22T20:22:36Z")
> [@Oona\_Aldeland](#): > > ■■■■■■ Everyone has the ability to be free. Everyone is limited in the available choices and their willingness to accept consequences for their choices. Most people that claim to be not free, simply don’t like the consequences. “I’m not free to stay home today, because the boss will fire me. I’m not free to go on a holiday, because no one will feed the kids!” These foolish people happily try and restrict other people though. They think nothing of trying to block outsiders from their own home or act violently when you take something they consider ‘their property’. Their sense of liberty is self-serving at best. ---
**Author:** ![Jade\_Blackwind](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jade_blackwind/32/197719_2.png) [@Jade\_Blackwind](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jade_Blackwind)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 10:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/34 "2019-12-24T10:55:03Z")
> [@Merdaneth](#): > > I have no doubt that you have good intentions, but I fear your education is somewhat lacking. In this world, no one is perfect. > [@](#): > > Enslavement does not take away a person’s free will. If that were true, slaves would not able to stage any escapes. What about a slave that sabotages their work assignments, according to your argument that would be that will of their new master? What is an ideal slave? Obedient and faithful, with enough intelligence to understand the master’s wishes and complete the assigned tasks. When faced with a choice, such a slave always selects the option that favors the interests of his master first. But to make such a choice without direct instructions, to be properly loyal, the slave must understand the master really well. Sort of like having a mental image of the master to follow. Thus, even if the ideal slave formally acts on his own will, he follows his inner master. The Nation brings this ideal to perfection, with the real Master actually connected to the slaves in the mind-hive of theirs. Those slaves who sabotage and try to escape, are far from the ideal, aren’t they? They act on their own true will, and not on their master’s, real or imaginary. And this is a good thing. > [@](#): > > While you certainly seem to know more about Amarr religion than your average unwashed barbarian, you fail to understand that free will is critical to achieving enlightenment. Faith comes from inside, it is a spiritual growth. Faith is not a string of empty words spoken at the crack of a whip. What you really do is nurture the “Caldari Prime Syndrome” in your victims. You know, when the hostages are so traumatized they break and start to side with the terrorists. Your system is built to break people to the point that they eventually form in their head the “inner master” I described above and begin to follow it. Your faith is just a part of this. > [@](#): > > Bones only grow strong when needing to bear weight, muscles only develop when you stretch them to their limits, only harsh tests bring out the true mark of a man. Overcoming hardships grows and strengthens the soul, do you not agree? Entirely. This is why the weak ones eventually submit and emerge as loyal servants of the Empire, and the strong overcome, resist and rise. > [@](#): > > You confusion is further underlined by your statement that it is every’s slave’s duty to resist and rise. How can they resist and rise when they have been stripped of free will? Choose one or the other please. Being stripped of free will (or, rather, following the master’s echo in one’s head in the attempts to faithfully serve) is the “ideal” state. Those who resist just don’t reach it. > [@](#): > > Additionally, by saying ‘every slave has a duty’, are you not trying to rob them of their free will yourself. Are you not telling them what they should do regardless of what they want? No. I’m telling that slavery is a test of one to remain true to themselves. If that person fails the test, it’s their weakness, and it’s bad. If that person overcomes and emerges free against the will of their master, it’s good. > [@](#): > > Will you force them to resist at gunpoint? No, I’m not interested in that. To force someone to resist at gunpoint is a bad idea. That slave will just backstab you and return to their comfy herd. > [@](#): > > Sound like you want to be their new master instead? Not really interested, sorry. What I really want is to break up the pyramids of power you people dedicate most your lives to build. The Empire is just the biggest one that creates the most suffering for those at the bottom of it. > [@](#): > > I think you and me are much alike. I doubt that. ---
**Author:** ![Merdaneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merdaneth/32/460803_2.png) [@Merdaneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merdaneth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/35 "2019-12-24T22:01:36Z")
> What is an ideal slave? Obedient and faithful, with enough intelligence to understand the master’s wishes and complete the assigned tasks. When faced with a choice, such a slave always selects the option that favors the interests of his master first. But to make such a choice without direct instructions, to be properly loyal, the slave must understand the master really well. Sort of like having a mental image of the master to follow. Thus, even if the ideal slave formally acts on his own will, he follows his inner master. Only insofar he thinks his master’s will is congruent with his own. If the slave wants to escape and his master doesn’t, but the slave sees a good opportunity, he will escape. To think otherwise is fooling oneself. A slave acts in its own interest and of its own will. It considers the consequences of its actions like anyone, and in no way its free will diminished because it has a legal custodian. The example of the Nation emphasizes this. The Amarr Empire was on the forefront of the war against the Nation because it abhors direct control. Direct control does not allow space for the soul to grow and come closer to God. It does not allow an individual to find faith. There is no issue with a slave that tries to escape. People are not enslaved to serve the will of the master, they are enslaved to enlighten them, they are enslaved to allow them space to find God. The express purpose of Amarr society is to free all slaves eventually. When they are ready. > What you really do is nurture the “Caldari Prime Syndrome” in your victims. You know, when the hostages are so traumatized they break and start to side with the terrorists. Your system is built to break people to the point that they eventually form in their head the “inner master” I described above and begin to follow it. Your faith is just a part of this. While you do not say it, you seem to imply that this is a bad thing, right? However, you (perhaps foolishly) do not realize that this is exactly the same mechanism that makes children love and be loyal to their parents. It is why children adopt their parent’s values as a base before making their own steps into the world. This mechanism is millions of years old and has been functioning quite successfully for all that time. Are we supposed to abandon parenthood now? There is only one major difference. We see our slaves as our children, while you see them as responsible adults. We want our slaves to grow strong, to rise up and become moral adults. There is no other way for a stable society to function in the long term. > No. I’m telling that slavery is a test of one to remain true to themselves. If that person fails the test, it’s their weakness, and it’s bad. If that person overcomes and emerges free against the will of their master, it’s good. Perhaps you should not call it a duty then, but merely an advice. Practice what you preach youngling. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/36 "2019-12-24T22:21:07Z")
> [@Merdaneth](#): > > The express purpose of Amarr society is to free all slaves eventually. When they are ready. [Not all Amarr agree](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550). ---
**Author:** ![Merdaneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merdaneth/32/460803_2.png) [@Merdaneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merdaneth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/37 "2019-12-24T22:36:19Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > > [@Merdaneth](#): > > > > The express purpose of Amarr society is to free all slaves eventually. When they are ready. > > [Not all Amarr agree](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/excubitoris-chapter-god-does-not-forgive-a-rejection-of-the-recent-concept-of-forgivable-generational-inherited-sin/202550). While I submit myself to Admiral Lok’ri superior knowledge of history and skill as a commander, I do not and never have recognized him as my superior with regards to scriptural interpretation. But even so, his primary argument in the quoted treatise is against generational slavery as a mechanism to forgive sin. I fail to see how that is at odds with my own statement. My position with Admiral Lok’ri has always been that God in the end decides who is to be forgiven and who isn’t. It is only our duty to bring everyone into the light to the best of our ability. Slavery is just a tool like parenthood is, and unless someone comes up with a better tool, we’ll continue to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 3:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/38 "2019-12-25T03:23:34Z")
> [@Merdaneth](#): > > A slave acts in its own interest and of its own will. It considers the consequences of its actions like anyone, and in no way its free will diminished because it has a legal custodian. What a wonderfully dehumanizing choice of phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astaire_quatrevaux/32/278706_2.png) [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astaire_Quatrevaux)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 4:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/39 "2019-12-25T04:30:36Z")
> [@Merdaneth](#): > > Slavery is just a tool like parenthood is, Wow. > [@Merdaneth](#): > > and unless someone comes up with a better tool, we’ll continue to use it. It’s being done. Will you? ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/515671_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2019, 6:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775/40 "2019-12-25T06:03:51Z")
> [@Merdaneth](#): > > A slave acts in its own interest and of its own will. It considers the consequences of its actions like anyone, and in no way its free will diminished because it… The fact that you continually refer to other human beings as “it”, as pieces of property puts the lie to all your florid talk of “uplifting slaves spirits”. > [@Merdaneth](#): > > The express purpose of Amarr society is to free all slaves eventually. When they are ready. Exactly how long is that and who decides? Oh, that would be as many _generations_ of free labor as your higher ups decide that they need, yes? At least be honest and admit that you view all other beings as inferior to the so-called True Amarr and will only be allowed to live in your society as second-class citizens after hundreds of years of back breaking labor in service to your tyrannical society. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-slavery-and-the-reclaiming-of-souls/206775.md?page=3)