# On the ndokassi discovery - who do you think has jurisdiction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889 "2019-01-25T21:11:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 11:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/41 "2019-01-28T11:53:18Z")
Judging from concensus in the thread, this territorialism over the most trivial crap will be the end of us anyway. Edit: And to clarify, the mistrust over allowing other people handle something of yours and apparently assuming they wont give it back is sad in the extreme. The ■■■■ do the Brutor think the Vherokior would want to hoard their artifacts for? Just let whoever dug them up research them and forward them to the appropriate parties. This really shouldn’t be this hard if people could just trust each other just a little damn bit. ---
**Author:** ![Constantly\_Outraged\_Sebiestor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/constantly_outraged_sebiestor/32/417519_2.png) [@Constantly\_Outraged\_Sebiestor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Constantly_Outraged_Sebiestor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 12:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/42 "2019-01-28T12:51:19Z")
Yeah I’m not sure that the argument is about the ndokassi as such. More like, the Ihumanoana Circle are a bit peeved that it was the Galar-Yu that found them, and so the Galar-Yu get the glory and the cool achievement tattoos to show off at parties and stuff. And the whole argument is because Sukandi Bjokur wants a cool tattoo to match the one they got for discovering stuff on Kulheim, and they’re annoyed that it’s going to be Gesila Fraemar who gets to put a cool tattoo on her skin to show off at the archaeological conference parties and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/43 "2019-01-28T13:50:15Z")
> [@Jocca\_Quinn](#): > > Send it upstairs, let the chief’s sort it out, I mean thats what they are there for isn’t it? Well the Chiefs can’t really get involved everytime someone has a jurisdiction quarrel over some old property. _Maybe_ this discovery is worth their time but maybe also it’s not, and who knows before the ndokassi are actually open. Proposed course of action: Someone in the Vherokior tribe, without consulting anyone, takes the damned things to a professional Circle _outside of both tribes_ (say, a Sebiestor one), and has them opened and preliminary inventory / results published in a joint report. There’d be an outcry and a scandal for sure; but the quarrel will then proceed with more information. Someone in Galar-Yu willing to take one for the team? I can assist with transport in space if such would be necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Constantin\_Baracca](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/constantin_baracca/32/170074_2.png) [@Constantin\_Baracca](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Constantin_Baracca)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/44 "2019-01-28T13:56:04Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Well the Chiefs can’t really get involved everytime someone has a jurisdiction quarrel over some old property. _Maybe_ this discovery is worth their time but maybe also it’s not, and who knows before the ndokassi are actually open. > > Proposed course of action: > > Someone in the Vherokior tribe, without consulting anyone, takes the damned things to a professional Circle _outside of both tribes_ (say, a Sebiestor one), and has them opened and preliminary inventory / results published in a joint report. > > There’d be an outcry and a scandal for sure; but the quarrel will then proceed with more information. > > Someone in Galar-Yu willing to take one for the team? I can assist with transport in space if such would be necessary. That’s likely a noble way to keep the greater conflict from spilling over and harming tribal relations at large, but be careful that it doesn’t turn all those tribal guns your way, ma’am. If there’s one thing governments around the universe hate, it’s embarrassment, and our own governments have an outsized quantity of opportunities to return the favor. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/45 "2019-01-28T14:03:34Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Proposed course of action: That everyone involved grows up a bit, handles it like adults and capsuleers steer clear of the whole deal. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/46 "2019-01-28T15:25:06Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > That everyone involved grows up a bit, handles it like adults > [@Teinyhr](#): > > Fate already decided that, the Galar-Yu Circle found it and it’s up to them to do whatever they want with them. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > And, of course, if the contents are irrefutably culturally signifigant to the Brutor (i.e. the contents are not millennia old sand or something), they should be forwarded to them. “Handle it like adults” = “let us just keep it until we decide it is significant for the Brutor”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/47 "2019-01-28T16:10:45Z")
And pray tell, what is the problem with the Vherokior Circle, who found them and excavated them, to keep them for study? And after the study part, identifying to whom what probably belongs to, giving them to the right people? Is stealing other Tribes artifacts particularly common to make this even worth being worried about? Edit: I mean, there is a world of difference in being in possession of someone else’s artifacts for scientific study and dangling someones schoolbag where they can’t reach and yelling “neener neener.” ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/48 "2019-01-28T16:39:25Z")
Chill… I don’t pretend I know why it is important to the Brutor either. But the whole point of this is that while we don’t, they think it is, and they have a claim that is at least not _complete_ bogus. Someone needs to mediate that claim - just dismissing it by Vherokior authority alone sounds dubious to me. No offense. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/49 "2019-01-28T17:26:40Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > there is a world of difference in being in possession of someone else’s artifacts for scientific study and dangling someones schoolbag where they can’t reach and yelling “neener neener.” That depends entirely on how the ‘someone else’ feels about you having _their_ artifacts. Especially when you consider how much of our culture was lost in the time these ndokassi have been waiting there in the Mother’s care. “What’s the big deal?” “What’s the problem with the Vherokior getting to study it all first?” We don’t know. We don’t know what’s in them. We don’t know what the contents will tell us about who the Kul-Brutor, and by extension, the Brutor Tribe, were in those times. We don’t know if what will be told is something that should not be told to those _outside_ the Tribe. Each of the Tribes has matters we do not share with outsiders. We each have things that are, to some extent, too sacred or profane for the eyes of those not _immediately_ bound by close ties of blood. And we are all, even centuries after the Rebellion, still incomplete and grasping, still reconstructing the knowledge _of ourselves_ that was lost. There are almost certainly secrets out there that each Tribe once kept, that they have forgotten they even knew, let alone held in confidence from the others. Would you have someone else look through _your_ most secret things, just because they happened to look in the place? These artifacts weren’t something the Brutor abandoned. They’re not something that was on an inventory list when territory was traded or sold. The knowledge of these things, and the knowledge of their contents, was _taken_ from the Brutor by force. And you ask what the problem is with someone _else_ getting to look at them first? Getting to decide not only what is said of them to the other Tribes, but even _to the Brutor_? You really don’t see what the problem with that is? ---
**Author:** ![Annisir\_Kaugan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annisir_kaugan/32/388372_2.png) [@Annisir\_Kaugan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annisir_Kaugan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/50 "2019-01-28T18:22:03Z")
The thing that hasn’t been discussed is the archeological community. They get really precious about stuff like this. Don’t give two hoots about jurisdiction as long as they get the academic credit for the discovery. It can get political. As the final comments point out, its more academic rivalry between Galar-Yu Circle and Ihumanoana Circle, than any inter-tribal argument over jurisdiction. Archaeology is not all science, a lot of it is opinion. The more academic credits a person has, in terms of publications and major finds obviously, the more weight their opinion has. That means they are more likely to get the better paid jobs. So it’s basically professional ambition posturing as tribal pride, with a dose of Inter-circle rivalry. Sukandi Bjokur was probably on to the media as soon as he heard a whiff of the find. It wouldn’t occur to him to give Gesila Fraemar a friendly call to ask if they could be present at the pening or visit the site for themselves. Next will be a call that they should have precedence anyway because only a Brutor archaeologist is qualified to asses a Brutor site. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/51 "2019-01-28T19:09:11Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > That depends entirely on how the ‘someone else’ feels about you having _their_ artifacts. Especially when you consider how much of our culture was lost in the time these ndokassi have been waiting there in the Mother’s care. > > “What’s the big deal?” “What’s the problem with the Vherokior getting to study it all first?” > > We don’t know. We don’t know what’s in them. We don’t know what the contents will tell us about who the Kul-Brutor, and by extension, the Brutor Tribe, were in those times. We don’t know if what will be told is something that should not be told to those _outside_ the Tribe. > > Each of the Tribes has matters we do not share with outsiders. We each have things that are, to some extent, too sacred or profane for the eyes of those not _immediately_ bound by close ties of blood. And we are all, even centuries after the Rebellion, still incomplete and grasping, still reconstructing the knowledge _of ourselves_ that was lost. There are almost certainly secrets out there that each Tribe once kept, that they have forgotten they even knew, let alone held in confidence from the others. All of this right here? This is utter tosh. It’s incredibly unlikely that they’re actually holding anything valuable. While, sure, they could contain whatever, but the Krusual records say they were specialized to contain biological matter and could preserve them for centuries. You know what, given where they were found, I bet they contain plant seeds, or something similar. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Would you have someone else look through _your_ most secret things, just because they happened to look in the place? These artifacts weren’t something the Brutor abandoned. They’re not something that was on an inventory list when territory was traded or sold. The knowledge of these things, and the knowledge of their contents, was _taken_ from the Brutor by force. Again, for no credible reason you assume the ndokassi contain something **secret.** Try something else. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And you ask what the problem is with someone _else_ getting to look at them first? Getting to decide not only what is said of them to the other Tribes, but even _to the Brutor_ ? You really don’t see what the problem with that is? I’m not in possession of them, I’m not deciding anything, so piss off, will you? * * * This whole thing was fun to think about, but as per usual, capsuleers just want to fight over ■■■■■■■ everything. Stuff them up your arse for all I care. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/515671_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/52 "2019-01-28T19:38:45Z")
Good gods why all the hostility? Passion/spirited discourse is one thing but this kind of directed hostility is counterproductive in the extreme and only serves to reinforce all the old stereotypes that outsiders have of us. I think the best bet would be what Arrendis initially proposed and work forward from there. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/53 "2019-01-28T19:55:54Z")
I’m just getting really tired of entertaining some people. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/54 "2019-01-28T19:59:38Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > Again, for no credible reason you assume the ndokassi contain something **secret.** Try something else. No, I don’t. I just don’t automatically assume they _don’t_, and think that until that can be ruled out care should be taken not to piss in someone’s corn flakes. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > I’m not in possession of them, I’m not deciding anything, so piss off, will you? You asked a question. I answered it. That’s it. Wasn’t an attack. The only one making this into a fight is _you_, Teinyhr, by insisting that no matter what anyone says, ‘no no, only WE can open it! All of you with your insistence that other people might have a valid cause for concern can just piss right off’. Discussing the whys and wherefores of jurisdiction, what those concerns might be, why those concerns should be taken as valid until shown not to be… that’s all, you know, _part of discussion_, and the only one getting all worked up and vitriolic here is _you_. As Else said: > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Chill… > [@Teinyhr](#): > > I’m just getting really tired of entertaining some people. Then don’t. You’re under no obligation to entertain anyone. Seriously, Teinyhr, this is a _discussion_. That’s it. If it’s not one you’re enjoying or feel is useful to you… don’t feel like you need to inflict it on yourself. Even for us, life’s too short. Find your bliss, y’know? ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/55 "2019-01-28T20:05:20Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > I’m just getting really tired of entertaining some people. Then don’t? Gods, if I answered every rant directed at me, I’d never sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 8:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/56 "2019-01-28T20:09:18Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You asked a question. I answered it. That’s it. Wasn’t an attack. You answered it by creating an incredibly hypothetical situation. Besides, I’m tired also like I said previously, of the absolutely childish territorialism over issues like this. There is practically nonexistant chance those ndokassi contain some sort of super secret terrible secrets the Brutor would never want to see the light of day. Even if they do, maybe we shouldn’t be keeping secrets between each other all the damn time. So, you know, instead of being worried about what _outsiders_ think of us about bickering, maybe we shouldn’t be making outsiders of eachother? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/57 "2019-01-28T20:19:29Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > Even if they do, maybe we shouldn’t be keeping secrets between each other all the damn time. Now that’s just a recipe for disaster. I don’t know of anyone who doesn’t keep secrets, who doesn’t have things they don’t want their enemies to know… and if your friends know it, your enemies _will_. As for how hypothetical the situation is… we don’t _know_ how hypothetical it is. Those things likely contain biological matter of some sort, right? Seeds, you say, and that’s entirely possible. But we don’t know. Maybe they were where they were because it’s noplace people would look. Maybe there’s some dark secret there that links an ancient Brutor clan to the Trigs or the Drifters in a way that tears the Tribes apart or brings the other empires down on our heads. We don’t know. And until we _do_ know… or at least, until the Brutor know… then caution and sensitivity is a better course than naked scientific avarice about the fame of discovery and the rush to publish. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > maybe we shouldn’t be making outsiders of eachother? Funnily enough, that’s exactly how I feel about the ‘NO NO ITS OURS WE FOUND IT YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BACK’ and ‘piss off’ approach. Extending a hand to the Brutor costs nothing here. Why oppose the very idea of it so feverishly? ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/58 "2019-01-28T20:22:00Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Funnily enough, that’s exactly how I feel about the ‘NO NO ITS OURS WE FOUND IT YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BACK’ and ‘piss off’ approach. Extending a hand to the Brutor costs nothing here. Why oppose the very idea of it so feverishly? > [@Teinyhr](#): > > Of course it would be prudent to invite the Ihumanoana Circle to study the artifacts and discuss what to do with them, as whatever is inside them, the Ihumanoana Circle is more likely to have a better understanding of. The piss off thing I said to you specifically. I’m not a representative of the Galar-Yu and as everyone else here, I was presenting my approach on the situation here. You seem to take whatever I say as decisions already made, sealed and sent. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/59 "2019-01-28T20:31:35Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > And pray tell, what is the problem with the Vherokior Circle, who found them and excavated them, to keep them for study? I’m not taking anything you’re saying as a decision made. I’m taking it as you asking ‘what the problem with this?’ Because that’s what you asked. So I laid out what the problem with it was, and you… attacked. And yes, you did say it would be prudent to invite the Ihumanoana Circle in, but again, you also advocated the Galar-Yu getting to make all the decisions about where it goes, and who gets to even examine it. That’s not ‘taking what you say as a decision already made’, it’s just expressing that I feel the idea that ‘it doesn’t matter who put it there, we found it, it’s ours until _we_ say otherwise’ is exactly the kind of ‘making outsiders of each other’ that you then turned around to decry. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889/60 "2019-01-28T20:39:17Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Because that’s what you asked. So I laid out what the problem with it was, and you… And I don’t agree with your assesment. > [@Arrendis](#): > > you also advocated the Galar-Yu getting to make all the decisions about where it goes, and who gets to even examine it. They found them, the objects are in their possession. So yes? Or are you suggesting the Ihumanoana Circle take the Colelie approach and sends mercenaries when they don’t get their way? Diplomacy. It’s not that \*\*\*\*\* hard. > [@Arrendis](#): > > it doesn’t matter who put it there, we found it, it’s ours until _we_ say otherwise When we’re talking about archaeology, yes, that is exactly the case. > [@Arrendis](#): > > is exactly the kind of ‘making outsiders of each other’ that you then turned around to decry. And telling the Galar-Yu to turn over everything is making them outsiders on their own discovery. What exactly is the problem in both circles working on them together? For sensible people, there should be none. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-ndokassi-discovery-who-do-you-think-has-jurisdiction/135889.md?page=4)