# On the Reclamation of Floseswin **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [March 1, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205 "2020-03-01T21:16:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 2:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/201 "2020-04-12T02:21:21Z")
That seems like a silly way to make an inspirational example of Saints. I mean, it basically tells all the little Amarrlings ‘Hey, be as much of an ass as you like. Be downright **evil** if you want! All that matters is when God says ‘Murder that dickhead’, you murder the living crap out of them. Nobody’ll bother remebering what a blasphemous _douche_ you were the other 400 years of your life!’ ---
**Author:** ![Slayer\_Liberator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/slayer_liberator/32/398086_2.png) [@Slayer\_Liberator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Slayer_Liberator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 3:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/202 "2020-04-12T03:55:53Z")
Well, considering the atrocities many of them commit, it makes sense that they would be inspired by someone like that. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 2:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/203 "2020-04-13T02:06:04Z")
Yes. The moment of perfect sanctity and sacrifice could indeed make up for a great deal of prior human failing. Though I truly doubt that anyone who went beyond human failing into actual God denying sin would ever be blessed with such a transcendent moment. There are also many different kinds of Saints. But martyrs, like Tetrimon, are saints because of that moment of sacrifice. They embody rising to the challenge and not hesitating when they are given the test of faith. Dwelling on the rest would diminish what is morally important about their story. Meanwhile other saints lack that single perfect moment of self sacrificial devotion, but make up for it through a life of perfect devotion and good works. Their stories tend to be somewhat more detailed, because it is their life that is the point, rather than their death. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/204 "2020-04-13T14:34:22Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > Though I truly doubt that anyone who went beyond human failing into actual God denying sin would ever be blessed with such a transcendent moment. And yet, as certain Khanid capsuleers demonstrate, there’s a _whole_ lot of room for mass-murdering evil in God’s name. Kinda my point, you know? By focusing on that one moment, you pave the way for the whole argument of ‘I am a monster _for God_, and that makes it all ok.’ When really, the only reason Tetrimon’s a saint is because his side _won_. If one of the followers of the person he killed had successfully taken the throne, for example, then Tetrimon would be reviled, and his victim hailed as a martyr instead. Obviously, there were structural reasons that would have been difficult, but I think you take my point. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/205 "2020-04-13T20:47:52Z")
What a succinct summary of literally all of human history. The Empire is still a human edifice, despite its divine inspiration. It is imperfect and shall remain so until the final revelations to be added to the Scriptures. Sometimes might makes right. Indeed, sometimes might is all there is. In the eternal struggle to master ourselves and one another, in the moments of desperate violence we engage in to exert our will over those we believe to be wrong or merely in the way of providence, God shows His favour to those with the skill and determination to achieve victory. We can only pray that by the end of it we have picked the right fights and fought in a righteous enough way to have earned salvation, be we an Empyrean war machine or a religious scholar who stuck a dagger into a false emperor. We are all but human. I, at least, do not make any claims to the contrary. We do not always know the right path, but, dear God, we are trying. Now, I believe this conversation is straying considerably from its original subject. As an update, the forces of the 24th Imperial Crusade have repelled several concerted counter-attacks upon the system of Floseswin. With skill and determination, we facilitate Lord Arrach Sarum’s will to conquer the fourth planet. The world has been declared a land of devotion or damnation. Then so be it. Once, on the verge of defeat, it seemed as though all would be damned, but now there is hope. Martyrdom is no longer the only path for our paladins. Instead, there is victory. If there is no retreat, salvation is found past your fallen enemy. I intend to help lead our way to it. I admire the bravery of the Matari here, in space and on the surface. Surely we are a fearsome foe to face when we are at strength. But though I may wish to forgive their apostasy, it is not my right to do so. We shall fight to the end, as surely they shall as well. I will not bother to ask for their surrender; they fear submission more than death and oblivion. I will weep for their mistake another time. For now, to war. For I shall not be written out of history by the likes of them, or any other enemy that chooses to face me. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/206 "2020-04-13T23:05:22Z")
> [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > What a succinct summary of literally all of human history. I _am_ pretty good like that, yeah. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > In the eternal struggle to master ourselves and one another, in the moments of desperate violence we engage in to exert our will over those we believe to be wrong or merely in the way of providence, God shows His favour to those with the skill and determination to achieve victory. If that’s the case, then literally any time you lose a fight, it’s ‘God’s disfavor’. I mean, is he _really_ so fickle? ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 9:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/208 "2020-04-16T09:14:04Z")
Not at all. Losing a fight? Such is life. Losing a battle? A test of resolve. Losing a war? Perhaps time to rethink things and come back to it. Losing the Empire? That is when we’ll know we have displeased Him. Should that happen, it merely means we must work harder to return to His grace. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/209 "2020-04-16T15:00:34Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > This seems like a highly abbreviated retelling. Kind of like ‘So, yeah, seven years ago, we wanted more moons, so Mittens attacked Fountain, and that’s the story of the Battle of 6VDT.’ I mean, that’s basically what happened, right? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 3:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/210 "2020-04-16T15:25:27Z")
Sure, if you don’t care about any of the actual underlying lessons to be learned, like ‘Why hasn’t DBRB had battleship keys for the last seven years?’ ---
**Author:** ![Zakir\_Fereyd](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zakir_fereyd/32/201906_2.png) [@Zakir\_Fereyd](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zakir_Fereyd)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/211 "2020-04-16T22:37:59Z")
I would say the Holy Empire learned a lot from Vak’Atioth and the Matari abnegation. On the benefits of peace to rebuild strength and power in order to return to a more robust Reclaiming at a later date, such as is happening in Floseswin. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 1:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/212 "2020-04-17T01:16:10Z")
> [@Zakir\_Fereyd](#): > > On the benefits of peace to rebuild strength and power in order to return to a more robust Reclaiming at a later date, such as is happening in Floseswin. So the benefits of lying and acting in bad faith? ---
**Author:** ![Zakir\_Fereyd](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zakir_fereyd/32/201906_2.png) [@Zakir\_Fereyd](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zakir_Fereyd)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 2:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/213 "2020-04-17T02:42:13Z")
The Reclaiming was never renounced. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 3:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/214 "2020-04-17T03:22:41Z")
No, but treaties _were_ signed. Offered _by_ the Amarr, no less—CONCORD, for example. To offer peace with the intention of renewed violence later is a lie. It is the act of _deceivers_, not those who claim to offer _truths_. ---
**Author:** ![Zakir\_Fereyd](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zakir_fereyd/32/201906_2.png) [@Zakir\_Fereyd](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zakir_Fereyd)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 3:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/215 "2020-04-17T03:55:15Z")
The truth is that the Pax Amarria was promulgated by late Imperial Majesty Heideran VII. A new truth has been promulgated by Her Most Sublime Majesty Catiz I. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 4:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/216 "2020-04-17T04:09:07Z")
That’s _part_ of the truth, yes. However, by committing the Empire to CONCORD, Heideran entered the Empire into an open-ended commitment to peace. If, _as you claim_, that commitment was made with the intention of eventual war, that commitment was a lie. If the Empire _currently_ intends to resume widespread Reclaiming by the sword, then the Empire’s continued membership in CONCORD—which includes a commitment to peace, outside of the limited scope of Militia Wars—is a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Zakir\_Fereyd](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zakir_fereyd/32/201906_2.png) [@Zakir\_Fereyd](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zakir_Fereyd)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 5:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/217 "2020-04-17T05:27:24Z")
I cannot presume to know the motives of the Holy Throne. However, I am not blind to see that the century of peace has prepared the Empire well to undertake religious duties such as in Floseswin. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 6:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/218 "2020-04-17T06:09:50Z")
Oh, come now. You can’t go offering up clear interpretations of intention, ie ‘in order to’, and then claim you wouldn’t presume to know motives. Without presuming motive and intention, there’s no way to really say what lessons someone might take from a given event. _Maybe_ the lesson learned was ‘stop being a bunch of colossal idiots’, and Catiz has _forgotten_ it, rather than learned anything about preparedness. Maybe not. It’s impossible to say without presuming motives. But then, that’s a common event among some Empire loyalists: wild speculation made with utter certainty, only to backtrack and insist ‘oh, it isn’t my place to presume to know’… right after doing _exactly that_. If you’re going to insist that you don’t have the station or standing to say what intentions or motives other have, that’s fine. Just, you know… _don’t_. ---
**Author:** ![Zakir\_Fereyd](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zakir_fereyd/32/201906_2.png) [@Zakir\_Fereyd](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zakir_Fereyd)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 6:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/219 "2020-04-17T06:31:10Z")
I see nothing in error making clear the nature of speculation on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 7:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/220 "2020-04-17T07:32:40Z")
Your presentation came with all of the lack of uncertainty so typical of the Amarr. And that lack of uncertainty, well, _certainly_ doesn’t present itself as humble speculation. Take more care in how you offer up speculation, if you wish it to to come across as less than declarations of knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Zakir\_Fereyd](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zakir_fereyd/32/201906_2.png) [@Zakir\_Fereyd](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zakir_Fereyd)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 8:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/221 "2020-04-17T08:12:51Z")
Yes, I should have used a caveat in my initial statement regarding the nature of my own interpretations and speculation. However, I would say my interpretation stands: CONCORD was a means to an end, and not the end in and of itself. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205.md?page=10) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205.md?page=12)