# On the Reclamation of Floseswin **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [March 1, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205 "2020-03-01T21:16:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/262 "2020-04-17T21:58:07Z")
That much is entirely fair, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/263 "2020-04-17T21:58:34Z")
> [@Zakir\_Fereyd](#): > > in the end the Faithful were defended Were they? Last I checked, slaves don’t get released immediately upon accepting the Faith. Seems to me the _faithful_ would have included quite a number of the people _attacked_ by the Khanid, in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/264 "2020-04-17T22:01:44Z")
I intentionally mentioned your chief, the admirable reputation of the Midular Clan is not unknown to me. I also intentionally spoke of those who keep their faith, who to my understanding often do not have the security of being considered part of a tribe. I don’t doubt that though her principles differ from mine, that Chief Midular is principled, that her predecessor was perhaps even more so. I’ll be a little more specific with my question though, in all probability, would anyone bother to tell her if people in lands she controls (I confess the specifics of your governance escape me) without clan, and who were already on the verge of starving began to do so? Edit: I’m not criticising the possibility that she would not know, merely attempting to illustrate that temporal governance is flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Zakir\_Fereyd](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zakir_fereyd/32/201906_2.png) [@Zakir\_Fereyd](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zakir_Fereyd)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/265 "2020-04-17T22:06:22Z")
The life of a slave is not commensurate with that of a freeman until they accept the Rite and are entered in the Book of Records. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/266 "2020-04-17T22:09:39Z")
To my knowledge, the Clanless within the Tribe do have means to make their needs known, yes. How robust those means are, I don’t know. Certainly, they don’t take the place of the safety net a Clan offers, simply by virtue of what that extended family relationship represents. But any _responsible_ system of governing such a diverse and distributed population would _need_ to have such a bureaucracy, not only empowered, but specifically _charged_ with bringing such vulneralbe peoples to the attention of those in power. Otherwise, it’s hardly responsible at all—it would just systemically churn out disaffected, marginalized malcontents eager to seek vengeance upon the system and society they might _rightly_ feel had failed them. > [@Zakir\_Fereyd](#): > > The life of a slave is not commensurate with that of a freeman until they accept the Rite and are entered in the Book of Records. To my knowledge, neither that acceptance nor entry require _or_ bestow emancipation. ---
**Author:** ![Zakir\_Fereyd](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zakir_fereyd/32/201906_2.png) [@Zakir\_Fereyd](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zakir_Fereyd)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/267 "2020-04-17T22:17:41Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > To my knowledge, neither that acceptance nor entry require _or_ bestow emancipation. No, but their lives still do not matter as much as those who are free. In a choice between saving the Faithful citizen of God, or condemning the Faithful slave, the slave should always be condemned. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/268 "2020-04-17T22:18:24Z")
I suspect it’s as robust as the safety net for slaves is, depending on Holder (or whoever is responsible for conveying the needs of the clanless). Anything from adequate to absent. In reference to the Knight-Preceptor’s point, that they have not earned the privilege of manumission does not in any way mean that profligacy with their lives is acceptable. Such carelessness is not only damaging to the slaves, to needlessly rob Holy Amarr of their good and faithful service would in my view constitute an offence to God. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/269 "2020-04-17T22:19:01Z")
> [@Zakir\_Fereyd](#): > > saving the Faithful citizen of God _from what_? The no-longer psychotic slaves, _secluded in their ghettoes_? ---
**Author:** ![Zakir\_Fereyd](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zakir_fereyd/32/201906_2.png) [@Zakir\_Fereyd](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zakir_Fereyd)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/270 "2020-04-17T22:21:50Z")
They could have still been psychotic with the limited knowledge available at the time. In the end however, no Imperial laws were broken by Kingdom actions in Kahah so I see nothing to censure. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/271 "2020-04-17T22:44:27Z")
The irony however is that whatever the truth is with respect to Kahah III (and I have heard too many versions to hold any certainty), the discussion among the high nobility about the proportionality of force was silenced as soon as outsiders attempted to coerce us into their preferred response. An outcome predictable to anyone with any understanding of our people. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 11:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/272 "2020-04-17T23:01:20Z")
So as long as no _laws_ are broken, it’s perfectly alright to be immoral and needlessly cruel, and there’s no cause for anyone to express disapproval. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrel\_Toov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tyrel_toov/32/387953_2.png) [@Tyrel\_Toov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tyrel_Toov)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 11:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/273 "2020-04-17T23:04:08Z")
Totally forgot that we are supposed to wait for you to tell us the bad thing you did was bad before we are allowed to take action. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 11:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/274 "2020-04-17T23:28:04Z")
Action is judged by its results, in rushing to implement coercive measures so completely doomed to failure that they could only have been for a domestic audience; the Republic contributed to a climate of heightened tensions, in which the military capability of the RKN has magnificently increased the political capital of the very man they sought to punish. But waiting’s for idiots right? ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/275 "2020-04-18T00:06:24Z")
The Red King would have ensured his sock puppet was rewarded regardless of what anyone else did. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/276 "2020-04-18T00:30:37Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > in which the military capability of the RKN has magnificently increased the political capital of the very man they sought to punish. Let’s not be foolish here. The ‘military capability of the RKN’ didn’t increase the political capital of Alar Chakaid. The _Blood Raiders did_. Time and again, Deathglow attacks happened _where it would benefit Chakaid_. When other Houses made statements of disapproval of what happened on Kahah, Deathglow struck Sarum, Kador, and Ardishapur. When Elsebeth spoke up, suddenly there’s a Deathglow strike in Sundsele—and let’s just not even get into the side-issue of how quickly Shakor’s government was ready to take advantage of the pro-Chakaid actions of the Blooders. When Arsia spoke up, firebombings in Dam-Torsad. And it all began with a Deathglow attack against Samira’s family—the family of someone who, in the past, spoke against Chakaid. The ‘military capability of the RKN’ is a _joke_. The rise of Alar Chakaid can be traced to the capabilities of Khanid’s friends, the _Blood Raiders_, and nobody else. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/277 "2020-04-18T00:46:09Z")
Curious target choices, in light of the absence of any such criticism from Kador or Sarum houses. Both in fact offering solidarity with the Kingdom in the immediate aftermath. Kor-Azor nobles along with those aligned to Ardishapur having been so vociferous in their disapproval would have seemed more natural choices for someone intending to silence opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Zakir\_Fereyd](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zakir_fereyd/32/201906_2.png) [@Zakir\_Fereyd](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zakir_Fereyd)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 12:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/278 "2020-04-18T00:48:05Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > So as long as no _laws_ are broken, it’s perfectly alright to be immoral If no laws of Holy Amarr were broken then Kingdom actions in Kahah being immoral is questionable. Disproportionate or heavy-handed perhaps, but immoral? Debatable. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrel\_Toov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tyrel_toov/32/387953_2.png) [@Tyrel\_Toov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tyrel_Toov)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 1:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/279 "2020-04-18T01:15:24Z")
And waiting for a Sociopathic empire to make amends and admit fault is a great idea… ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 1:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/280 "2020-04-18T01:21:31Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > Curious target choices, in light of the absence of any such criticism from Kador or Sarum houses. Not really. They’re _rivals_. Sarum, the House most aligned against Khanid in the past, set on the back foot. Kador, made to look ineffective and _gasp_ look at that, Khanid gets Aridia… Mm. So _curious_. Kor-Azor was, prior to the Empress’s new direction, largely gelded. Ardishapur _got hit_ (Thebeka). So, so curious. > [@Zakir\_Fereyd](#): > > If no laws of Holy Amarr were broken then Kingdom actions in Kahah being immoral is questionable. If murdering people because it’s more convenient than using non-lethal means to subdue a population isn’t immoral, maybe that points to a flaw in your morality. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 1:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205/281 "2020-04-18T01:32:53Z")
That doesn’t particularly bear scrutiny, clearly Aridia being placed under Khanid control was a significant boon for them; however those you cite as being weakened and/or gelded were chief among the beneficiaries of the territorial reorganization, if it was an attempt to weaken rivals it was certainly limited in success. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/on-the-reclamation-of-floseswin/223205.md?page=15)