# One Way to Balance High-Security Space šŸ—” **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 24, 2022, 4:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999 "2022-09-24T16:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 9:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/246 "2022-09-25T21:23:01Z")
> [@Codename\_Razorback](#): > > Itā€™s obvious to anyone with half a brain that they pull CONCORD in order to delay their response time. You can spin it however you like, but everyone knows whatā€™s up. Oh dear. How are you actually reporting all the gankers you see pulling ā€œto delayā€ CONCORD? Iā€™m sure CCP is super glad you litter their support system with tickets because you donā€™t understand the game ---
**Author:** ![Codename\_Razorback](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/codename_razorback/32/486427_2.png) [@Codename\_Razorback](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Codename_Razorback)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 9:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/247 "2022-09-25T21:23:44Z")
* * * I can understand you guys trying so hard to protect the only way you know to make ISK in this game. * * * ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 9:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/248 "2022-09-25T21:28:27Z")
Itā€™s just that CCP multiple times clarified that pulling CONCORD is not delaying CONCORD and that both times are considered normal response times. And since they make the game rules, they are right and you are wrong But feel free to continue to write tickets. I donā€™t want to stop you in any way, itā€™s your right to be wrong. I would not expect otherwise from a miner ---
**Author:** ![Codename\_Razorback](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/codename_razorback/32/486427_2.png) [@Codename\_Razorback](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Codename_Razorback)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 9:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/249 "2022-09-25T21:36:43Z")
LULZ. I owned my first Super/Mom before you even started playing the game. Iā€™m pretty sure that I understand the mechanics of gameplay. * * * ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/e/f/a/efab3e3d5cb58196c80c6d45c8230758ceedbae6.png) ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 9:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/250 "2022-09-25T21:37:11Z")
> [@Codename\_Razorback](#): > > I can understand you guys trying so hard to protect the only way you know to make ISK in this game. I donā€™t even gank. I just donā€™t see the need to continue detroying this game by removing playstyles that attract people. At some point, the game needs to expand again, not continually look to become narrower. > [@Codename\_Razorback](#): > > LULZ. I owned my first Super/Mom before you even started playing the game. Iā€™m pretty sure that I understand the mechanics of gameplay. By all measures we have available, Karak has been playing the game far longer than you have. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 9:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/251 "2022-09-25T21:41:31Z")
> [@Codename\_Razorback](#): > > LULZ. I owned my first Super/Mom before you even started playing the game. Iā€™m pretty sure that I understand the mechanics of gameplay. And weā€™re all pretty sure that your practical understanding of the game is about in line with a three-week-old miner. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/253 "2022-09-25T21:46:43Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > How many people are attracted by ganking and would actually leave if it ceased to exist I donā€™t know, but neither does anyone. I certainly donā€™t see any benefit in removing playstyles that attract anyone, because reducing playstyles certainly doesnā€™t add more breadth and depth to the game. Change is inevitable and adapting to change is always going to be necessary for all playstyles, but just deleting playstyles from the game isnā€™t a great approach. ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 9:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/254 "2022-09-25T21:47:06Z")
> [@Codename\_Razorback](#): > > LULZ. I owned my first Super/Mom before you even started playing the game. Iā€™m pretty sure that I understand the mechanics of gameplay. 2003 nice, must admit you fooled me! From this thread and your comments about game mechanics I expected you are rather new to the game. But we all learn at our own pace. I can also see why you are in ag now, it all comes together. ---
**Author:** ![Codename\_Razorback](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/codename_razorback/32/486427_2.png) [@Codename\_Razorback](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Codename_Razorback)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 10:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/255 "2022-09-25T22:00:54Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > By all measures we have availableā€¦ * * * You can draw all the conclusions you want. It wonā€™t make you right. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/256 "2022-09-25T22:02:12Z")
> [@Codename\_Razorback](#): > > It wonā€™t make you right. No, but being right makes me right. ĀÆ\_(惄)\_/ĀÆ ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 10:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/258 "2022-09-25T22:18:36Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sure, but we can certainly speculate based on available information. There isnā€™t any available information that we can speculate on. For example, Iā€™m not a ganker, but Iā€™m certainly attracted to the game by the harsh and competitive nature that ganking is part of. Would I leave if ganking was removed, I donā€™t know, but the sum total of all changes over the last few years feel like death by a thousand paper cuts to me. At some point, like others that reached a threshold they werenā€™t happy with, thereā€™s a threshold that is a step too far for everyone. So if CCP canā€™t keep new players to replace old (and so far, all of the changes since 2014 aimed as aiding new player retention havenā€™t made any significant difference), then removing existing gameplay only hurts the current player base more. We are seeing the results of that now. In my view, removing (or even significantly nerfing) the nature of the game isnā€™t the way to go. Give more people, including all playstyles, better reasons to undock and take the risk for being in space. Thatā€™s the big problem currenty. Thereā€™s less and less reward for the same activities and less reasons for people to undock. For many people, undocking is the reason to login, so if they donā€™t feel like undocking, then they dont have a need to login either. The game used to offer far more to all playstyles, especially the PVE playstyles than it does now. Thatā€™s what needs to be fixed. PVP in highsec is at historically low levels right now, for some group types, far below where just natural player attrition would have it. There is less ganking now that at any point in the last decade, yet that hasnā€™t changed the slide of the game. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 10:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/261 "2022-09-25T22:44:26Z")
Getting rid of ganking gives bots free reign. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 10:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/262 "2022-09-25T22:46:13Z")
Do people in RL dig holes in your path and yet you refuse to see them and keep walking into them? ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 10:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/264 "2022-09-25T22:48:57Z")
> [@Codename\_Razorback](#): > > thereā€™s no money to be made from preventing a gank Pull the other one. what about all the tax free donations you get from the dummys you save? > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > ganking has clear rewards (dropped loot, What is stopping you looting the wreck yourself? ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 10:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/265 "2022-09-25T22:51:41Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > The vast majority of the time gankers are hitting inexperienced players that have little impact on anything. Proof? Yet again and time after time, you have none. Did flagging myself work is far more important to know than anything you have to troll. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 10:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/267 "2022-09-25T22:56:52Z")
You still didnā€™t answer the more important question. Did flagging myself work? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > šŸ¤£ šŸ¤£ šŸ¤£ ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 10:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/269 "2022-09-25T22:59:53Z")
Thanks! Finally, an honest answer from you. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 11:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/271 "2022-09-25T23:03:52Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Iā€™m not sure I believe that ganking is at itā€™s lowest point in the last decade though, it might be in terms of ISK destroyed but Iā€™m not sure thatā€™d be true on number of kills. Iā€™m not at my desktop right now, so will update with detail later (and for small ships Iā€™m still working on getting a handle on how much ganking there is compared to previous years), but as a start (and more detail to come at the end of my day), overall pvp in highsec is down. Left side of each picture is pvp kills in the game with highsec also. The right side is the highsec numbers on their own, to be a better scale. This is all sources of pvp loss (not just ganking). This is from all of the available MER kill dump data (the MER started in April 2016, but kill dumps didnā€™t appear in the raw data until June 2106): **Mining Barges** ![mining_barge](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/6/a/86a49044c53ba4ee8a8328ae0e964e6064f69d8a.png) From around 2000 kills per month back in mid-2016 to about 500 per month now. Itā€™s at roughly 25% of total kills compared to 2016. **Exhumers** ![exhumer](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/c/3/2/c328e9f9642a7211d35a989a65753c32e92d2cad.png) Down to 1/4 to 1/3rd of what the numbers were in 2016 **Blockade Runner** ![blockade_runner](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/1/6/2/16222aba771051f914ff90278d5175f642ce30ab.png) About half where they were just a few years ago. **Freighter** ![freighter](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/f/2/1/f21f273afcb0b9cd4e9a190dbd46aa133c343d6e.png) Down to 10% of what used to be destroyed, and going back on available data, it isnā€™t until 2009 that numbers were previously at the same level. **Jump Freighter** ![jump_freighter](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/4/a/6/4a6b573b35b04a481da9de3d6d8bdb679e314a41.png) Has almost completely disappeared. For example, [looking at this month on zkillboard](https://zkillboard.com/group/902/highsec/losses/) for additional detail, 1 jump freighter killed in a war dec and 2 killed by NPCs. No other jump freighters have died in highsed (and we know from cross matching data off the MER to zkill, that almost 100% of jump freighter killmails are available. For Industrial Command Ships and Deep Space Transports, the numbers are flat and even slightly increased, but the numbers overall for these are on the order of about 6 deaths in highsec per day each. The numbers arenā€™t really big to begin with (and a lot die in wars): ![industrial_command](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/0/5/b/05b6dc9816a9cf55770ff1b7ffd37dd932c3560f.png) ![deep_space_transport](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/f/8/0/f8089704bf7fd72eb179571c7dc4cc30dbebaf28.png) Thereā€™s a lot more analysis than just graphs, but I canā€™t post it now. Clear to see the trend in highsec pvp (and it applies across the board for other ship groups also). When specifically looking at ganking of these ships, the numbers are down more than the decline in player numbers. Source data: [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kb3NcWIgBKMvqvK-mvC2Ltj6teHCJyHt/view?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kb3NcWIgBKMvqvK-mvC2Ltj6teHCJyHt/view?usp=sharing) Itā€™s 1.3GB download (and the graphs included are earlier versions). ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 11:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/272 "2022-09-25T23:04:30Z")
> [@MB\_ThePhotographer](#): > > Thanks! Finally, an honest answer from yo If @Lucas_Kell said that he always lies, would he have been telling the truth or a lie? ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2022, 11:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/273 "2022-09-25T23:06:04Z")
And you didnā€™t get the analogy of people digging holes in front of you to walk into. I already knew the answer, but itā€™s just my shift to troll youā€¦ [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999.md?page=12) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999.md?page=14)