# One Way to Balance High-Security Space 🗡 **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 24, 2022, 4:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999 "2022-09-24T16:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Ferdiad\_Silver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ferdiad_silver/32/331325_2.png) [@Ferdiad\_Silver](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ferdiad_Silver)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 10:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/535 "2022-09-29T10:43:30Z")
> [@Gix\_Firebrand](#): > > Because how can you take him seriously bruv? > > He’s made to be farmed for content 😃 I have very specific issues with the way Lukas debates/discusses. That isn’t to say nothing he ever says isn’t a valid point, it’s just very hard to engage with someone on any point when they as a whole aren’t discussing in good faith and fall to being dismissive/reductionist in most of your interactions. By the same token it’s nigh on impossible to take you seriously because you are almost exclusively using those tools. You say you are farming him for content, and it’s great that you are amusing yourself. However let’s not pretend it’s anything more than you amusing yourself or that a wall of emoticons and “no you” is valuable to anyone but you. > [@Gix\_Firebrand](#): > > Here’s the rub, the EVE I fight for is actually the game. Now CCP owns it, they can change it any time. However, certain changes will make EVE not EVE anymore. > > Now if those do come down the pipe, I’ll most likely mosy on anyways. Unlike Lucas, I can quit vidya games And that’s your right, however in my experience few people that shout about quitting actually do quit. It’s something people like to say with almost any change that upsets their status quo. If you do I think you’ll be an outlier. If all the gankers quit someone would move in to fill the vacuum. If all the high sec carebears quit someone would move in to fill the vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 10:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/536 "2022-09-29T10:50:30Z")
Clearly. Not like when others do it, because thats fine. ---
**Author:** ![Codename\_Razorback](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/codename_razorback/32/486427_2.png) [@Codename\_Razorback](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Codename_Razorback)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 10:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/537 "2022-09-29T10:51:15Z")
OP was about bringing a balance to HS by putting bounties on criminals (like NPC bounties) or locking criminals out of HS. * * * A -10 sitting on a tether all day is ridiculous! ---
**Author:** ![Karak\_Terrel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/karak_terrel/32/373453_2.png) [@Karak\_Terrel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Karak_Terrel)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 1:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/538 "2022-09-29T13:20:30Z")
Already chickened out of the bet? As I thought ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 1:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/539 "2022-09-29T13:45:54Z")
> [@Codename\_Razorback](#): > > I’m not giving up my main. Oh, an anti-ganking forum poster that is an alt of an anonymous main. How novel. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/540 "2022-09-29T16:50:03Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sometimes it’s not their fault and they pick up what someone else present my view as then runs with it (like when people claim I want a 100% safe highsec) but usually it’s a pretty deliberate misrepresentation. But you **do** want a 100% safe high-sec. That is what the total elimination of suicide-ganking would accomplish. The mechanic of being able to accept or decline a duel request is not _risk,_ and that’s all that would remain. You’re just trying to hide your intent behind semantic obfuscation. Instead of saying “yo man, I gonna stab you for yo wallet,” you’re saying “I am intending to engage in a scientific experiment to determine if the repeated application of a cutting instrument to the thoracic cavity can cause changes in respiratory function sufficiently quantifiable to create an environment suitable for fostering the reallocation of personal funds.” Boy, the latter sure does sound more agreeable! But it’s the exact same thing. > [@Ferdiad\_Silver](#): > > And that’s your right, however in my experience few people that shout about quitting actually do quit. It’s something people like to say with almost any change that upsets their status quo. If you do I think you’ll be an outlier. There are different reasons behind quitting. Some people quit because they get angry due to some kind of inconvenience, despite the product still being essentially viable for their needs. Others quit because they are simply unable to use the product anymore. > [@Ferdiad\_Silver](#): > > If all the gankers quit someone would move in to fill the vacuum. If all the high sec carebears quit someone would move in to fill the vacuum. For all the gankers to quit, CCP would have to remove ganking from the game. If that were to happen, no one would move in to fill the vacuum, because there would be no vacuum to fill. How would other gankers take the place of those who quit, if ganking is no longer possible? Hypothetically, the same could apply to the carebears, if CCP were to do something like removing all PvE from the game. But that will never happen. It’s not even a consideration. What does happen is that CCP makes _changes_ to PvE, and some players leave because they don’t want to deal with the inconvenience of having to adapt to a different market environment. In that case, other players _do_ move in to fill the vacuum. But the existence of ganking is a zero/sum consideration. People aren’t arguing to remove _some_ ganking, they’re arguing to remove _all_ ganking. If _all_ ganking were to be removed, gankers would no longer have a game to play. Why would they stay at that point? ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/542 "2022-09-29T17:02:47Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Nope and nope. Unless you’re suggesting that every loss in highsec is a gank, in which case that’ll make ganking stats a lot easier to aggregate. Ganking is the _only_ form of non-consensual PvP losses in high-sec. All other PvP losses are the result of expressed consent to PvP engagements. If the only way to suffer a loss is to have an engagement to which all parties must provide consent, the environment becomes 100% safe. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I have argued to remove _some_ ganking. I’ve suggested limiting it to certain just classes of ship, notably all T2/faction/pirate ships, all battleships or bigger and all haulers. It’s be fairly trivial to lock safeties to green on other ships and it’d be simple for gankers to apply filters to their overviews to see which targets they can go after. And your idea is horrible because to would constitute an utter lack of balance. A new player carrying 20 million ISK of Veldspar in a hauler would be a viable gank target, while a veteran carrying a set of capital BPOs in a cruiser would be fully immune. But I guess that’s your intent, isn’t it? This was never about protecting the new players, but about protecting your ability to autopilot expensive things between trade hubs while not even looking at the game. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/544 "2022-09-29T17:19:52Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Expressed consent, missteps or consent given by others. But it still wouldn’t be 100% safe. 100% safe means that noone can be killed by any other player full stop. Once again, semantic obfuscation. “Safe” in the context of EVE PvP means that someone can’t force an engagement on you. If you can only have the engagement by _agreeing_ to the engagement, then you are safe. That concept of safety isn’t detracted from just because there is the possibility to accidentally give consent by clicking the wrong thing on the screen. User error doesn’t detract from the concept of safety from others. And no one else can give consent for you. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Any remotely competent veteran is already immune. No, they aren’t. Their odds of not taking losses are higher, but as long as the _possibility_ of an engagement being forced upon them exists, and they’re out in space and not docked in a station, they aren’t immune to taking PvP losses. You’re just being straight-up dishonest right now. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Anything of significant value in the hundreds of billions range I can haul in complete safety anyway No you can’t. You can take steps to significantly reduce your risks, but you can’t eliminate them entirely. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > and anything less than that is getting hauled on contract, probably by someone with an autopilot bot. In the incredibly rare occasions they get ganked my collateral covers my loss of profit too, so it’s effectively likely instantly selling the load. Offloading the risk of loss to someone else doesn’t eliminate the risk. The risk is still left in the environment. This isn’t all just about _you_. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/545 "2022-09-29T17:25:19Z")
> [@Ferdiad\_Silver](#): > > If all the gankers quit someone would move in to fill the vacuum. If all the high sec carebears quit someone would move in to fill the vacuum. Mmm not always tho. A fundamental change like that will be the death knell of EVE, just a slow one. It already slowly has been, esp with the war dec change which directly lead us to the upswing in HS ganking. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > There are different reasons behind quitting. Some people quit because they get angry due to some kind of inconvenience, despite the product still being essentially viable for their needs. Others quit because they are simply unable to use the product anymore. Shrug. He’s welcome to think whatever he likes. But a big change like that would make it not EVE anymore. I got no interest in a game that has no risk. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Any remotely competent veteran is already immune. And I’ve not suggested it’s a perfect solution, just better than the one we’ve currently got and it was just an example of a suggestion that was _some_ ganking. Huh. Yet you won’t teach the nubs these ways to make them immune. Interesting 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/547 "2022-09-29T17:35:03Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I disagree with your definition. “Safe” means I can’t suffer a loss. Okay, great. You can have your own definition. You just won’t get consensus from anyone on it. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I disagree. And have a record of zero ganks while hauling expensive things which I’ve done thousands of times. You barely even need to be awake to do it. Just because you’re the best player in the game, and outplayed everyone else with your superior skills, doesn’t mean that there’s no risk inherent to the system. The risk is there, it just doesn’t affect you _personally._ I really don’t understand why you’re trying to argue otherwise, because it’s an untenable position, especially for someone who’s dismissed anecdotal evidence from other players, like Altara. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Right, but you claimed that my reasons were to protect my hauling, but then I don’t haul in freighters and whatnot because the time I spend doing that is a net loss vs just paying some group that undoubtedly bots to do it. And now you could realize even bigger savings just by setting stuff on autopilot for the night. You wouldn’t be spending _any_ time, because the hauling would be performed during time at which you don’t normally play the game. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/549 "2022-09-29T17:50:02Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > This game just isn’t particularly difficult. You should tell that to the players losing tens of billions of ISK while hauling in high-sec. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > No, it’s just so infinitesimally small that it’s negligible. Then why is it even a problem? ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/551 "2022-09-29T18:00:10Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > We’ve covered this. It’s not a problem to veterans, it’s a problem to non-veterans. Too bad that your “solution” only helps the former and not the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/553 "2022-09-29T18:21:50Z")
New players don’t just fly “smaller ships.” Your idea does nothing for the new player who puts everything they own into a new battlecruiser or a faction cruiser after a week in the game. Your idea does, however, help older players who would be aware on how to exploit it to achieve absolute safety in certain activities (e.g. hauling large amounts of expensive items). I can’t perceive this as anything but the intentional use of new players as a shield in order to extract concessions from CCP that would boost your own play style. If you were truly concerned for new players getting ganked, but were in favor of older, wealthier players getting ganked, you would propose some kind of different solution that accomplishes _that_ specifically, like for example making low-end ships easily replaceable, or making it impossible to gank in select clusters of new player training systems (but not, for example, Jita and Perimeter and Amarr). But you _don’t,_ and this isn’t merely incidental. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 6:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/555 "2022-09-29T18:57:05Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Your thought process basically goes “I don’t like this therefore there must be an ulterior motive I can blame it on”. My thought process basically goes “I don’t like this idea because its expected outcome doesn’t line up with its stated intention.” > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > If anything all it suggests is your own bias towards support ideas that benefit you. There hasn’t been anything implemented to the game that genuinely benefited me in over ten years. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 7:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/556 "2022-09-29T19:17:21Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I disagree. And have a record of zero ganks while hauling expensive things which I’ve done thousands of times. You barely even need to be awake to do it. Oh? Drop the char 😃 > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > And now you could realize even bigger savings just by setting stuff on autopilot for the night. You wouldn’t be spending _any_ time, because the hauling would be performed during time at which you don’t normally play the game. Yea, it’s been obvious for a while what his motivation really is. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Sure I will, I’ll just do what you guys do and create a bunch of alts to pat myself on the back with. LOL bruv, your paranoia is a bit out of control there. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > We’ve covered this. It’s not a problem to veterans, it’s a problem to non-veterans. And again, you refuse to help the non-veterans LOL. You keep saying this, but won’t share the tactics you use with them 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Of course not. Your thought process basically goes “I don’t like this therefore there must be an ulterior motive I can blame it on”. If anything all it suggests is your own bias towards support ideas that benefit you. Brosef, you realize you aren’t near as clever as you think you are right? The smokescreen don’t work 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 7:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/558 "2022-09-29T19:25:27Z")
Why am I bitter? The game, as is, is fine to me, and I play it daily (and unlike you, actually do stuff that doesn’t involve only clicking things repeatedly to make my wallet grow). ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 7:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/560 "2022-09-29T19:27:29Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I think we just solved this. My guy. It is obvious you’re bitter 😃 All those alleged 20 accounts and none of them bring you joy 😃 _Also_ did you find it on the box or ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 7:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/561 "2022-09-29T19:28:11Z")
But I’m not looking or asking for changes that benefit me? I really don’t know where you’re trying to go with this, but I don’t think the last-ditch effort to try to armchair-psych me is going to be fruitful. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 8:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/562 "2022-09-29T20:00:52Z")
I enjoy ganking. It’s fun. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999/563 "2022-09-29T20:05:31Z")
Of course as well you should. It’s been tempting me to get more accounts, but I just can’t justify it LOL. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999.md?page=24) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/one-way-to-balance-high-security-space/377999.md?page=26)