# Orca and Rorq: Bring Balance CCP! **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [January 5, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069 "2020-01-05T16:39:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2020, 9:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/81 "2020-02-05T21:43:22Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > No, the orca and rorquals are not the only ships with several roles. Complaining about that is just stupid. So, looking at the number of individual bonuses a ship has (as opposed to looking at number of “roles”, which, I am willing to admit, is somewhat arbitrary but was done for the sake of simplicity) when discussing whether a ship has too many bonuses is unrelated? Okay then, what else shall we talk about? How’s the weather where you are? ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/82 "2020-02-05T22:02:02Z")
> [@Bronson\_Hughes](#): > > So, looking at the number of individual bonuses a ship has (as opposed to looking at number of “roles”, which, I am willing to admit, is somewhat arbitrary but was done for the sake of simplicity) when discussing whether a ship has too many bonuses is unrelated? Yes. You are the one making it a balance rule. You are making up a problem, with arbitrary filtering on the data, and wrong data otherwise, for an oversimplification that does not make sense anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/83 "2020-02-06T13:30:01Z")
So…I’m the one pointing out a balance problem, therefore I’m making up the problem and am thus wrong? That’s not especially compelling logic. I’ve pointed out the ways that the Orca and Rorqual are much more powerful compared to other ships in terms of the number of bonuses and roles it has, with specific examples and counter examples. All of your replies have basically been “no”. Again, not the most compelling logic. The forums are barking at me for replying to you too frequently so I’m going to let this go here, but seriously, if you’re going to keep arguing that Orcas and Rorqs are balanced as-is, you may want to start actually thinking about _why_ you think that and articulating those thoughts instead of just saying that people who disagree with you are wrong. Good hunting. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/84 "2020-02-06T18:28:08Z")
> [@Bronson\_Hughes](#): > > So…I’m the one pointing out a balance problem No you are not. You pick arbitrary data, with arbitrary filter, and claim this is a balance issue. To point at a balance issue implies to prove that it exists, which you don’t : not only are your fact wrong, but also nowhere do you prove that those fact would prove that there is an actual issue. > [@Bronson\_Hughes](#): > > if you’re going to keep arguing that Orcas and Rorqs are balanced as-is, you may want to start actually thinking about _why_ you think that and articulating those thoughts instead of just saying that people who disagree with you are wrong. Except that’s literally how it is. [Burden of proof (philosophy) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)#Shifting_the_burden_of_proof) YOU are the one claiming that they are not balanced, so YOU are the one having to prove it (otherwise you are wrong), and all I need to do is, show that your proof is invalid, to invalidate your whole argument. #logic\_101 And since you already are having a hard time understanding basic logic, anything else I would add would only make you focus on something that is not the core of my argument. Therefore no, I should not explain _why_ I think they are balanced, which is incidentally of-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/85 "2020-02-06T21:10:32Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Except that’s literally how it is. [Burden of proof (philosophy) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)#Shifting_the_burden_of_proof) > YOU are the one claiming that they are not balanced, so YOU are the one having to prove it (otherwise you are wrong), and all I need to do is, show that your proof is invalid, to invalidate your whole argument. #logic\_101 For the sake of this reply, I’m gong to assume that our discussion on this topic began [here](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/59). We had exchanged a few comments prior to that, but they were along a different line of reasoning. You’ll see in that post that I was refuting someone else’s claim, specifically a claim that Orcas and Rorquals are balanced because many other ships share a large number of roles and/or bonuses. You’ll also see that I provided rationale backing up said refutations. I met my burden of proof at that point. You disagreed with my rationale, which you are well and good to do and would normally shift the burden of proof back onto me, but you did so without providing any rationale of your own other than simply dismissing mine. Ergo, burden of proof is currently on _you_. I stand by my point. You would be well served by better articulating why you feel the Orca and Rorqual are well balanced as-is instead of simply stating it as a matter of fact. Even if the burden of proof _was_ on me, clearly articulating your stance is always a more compelling and satisfying argument that relying on pedantry. QED. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/86 "2020-02-06T21:29:22Z")
> [@Bronson\_Hughes](#): > > For the sake of this reply, I’m gong to assume that our discussion on this topic began [here](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/59). We had exchanged a few comments prior to that, but they were along a different line of reasoning. it began with that idiot. > [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > The ship has 3 roles, most ships have 1, you are defending this as ok. > > Why? Why is it ok for a ship to have 3 roles? > [@Bronson\_Hughes](#): > > You’ll see in that post that I was refuting someone else’s claim, specifically a claim that Orcas and Rorquals are balanced because many other ships share a large number of roles and/or bonuses. You are wrong. In the post you linked, the claim is that the rorqual and orca having several bonus is not a cause of imbalance. It does not mean that having several roles makes them balanced, nor that giving more roles to other ships makes the orca/rorqual balanced. > [@Bronson\_Hughes](#): > > I met my burden of proof at that point. No, you did not. You still need to prove that having three roles makes them imbalanced. Which is intrinsically false, because basically other ships have more than 2 roles, which means that either the game is globally imba and so complaining about the orca/rorqual is stupid, or the game is not imba and the orca and rorqual are fine. So no, you proved nothing. You just claimed something, without a proof, and thus we told you that this was not enough. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/87 "2020-02-06T21:39:56Z")
See, I told you, it’s not gray, it is in-between black and white. ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/88 "2020-02-06T22:12:05Z")
It was an entertaining exercise at least. I haven’t space-lawyered in a long time… EDIT: And for those who don’t know, “Space Lawyering” is an equal mix of rational, logical discussion and utter shitposting. I mean…here we are, on a digital forum talking about imaginary balance issues with Internet spaceships. You gotta have a little fun, right? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/89 "2020-02-13T17:48:27Z")
So rather than do something simple and targeted like any of the suggestions in this thread they “fixed” the problem by making all asteroids small. GIT MI HAMMER MA, ILL SURE FIX IT /sigh ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/90 "2020-02-13T19:03:14Z")
In CCP’s defense, this seems more like a move to encourage moon mining, and less a move to resolve the Orca’s OP mining abilities. Related issue, but not the same problem. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/91 "2020-02-13T20:37:29Z")
I’m mainly referring to the volume reductions, the redistribution seems fine to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/92 "2020-02-13T21:17:21Z")
Wait, they made mineable asteroids physically smaller? I must have missed that. Yeah that seems…weaksauce… 😕 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orca-and-rorq-bring-balance-ccp/210069/93 "2020-05-13T21:17:27Z")
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