# Orcas should never have been turned into mining vessels **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 8, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526 "2019-10-08T19:08:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Grumpy\_Goon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grumpy_goon/32/164601_2.png) [@Grumpy\_Goon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grumpy_Goon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/276 "2019-10-12T19:35:11Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > At any rate, OFC a Hulk is going to mine more than an Orca, but that’s also besides the point. Then you can outmine the AFKer. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/277 "2019-10-12T19:35:26Z")
It’s not beside the point. Its part of the risk/reward umbrella. There are always going to be ways to do an activity with low effort. Providing those low effort ways give lower reward, it’s not a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/278 "2019-10-12T19:35:50Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > At any rate, OFC a Hulk is going to mine more than an Orca, but that’s also besides the point. Because that’s the tradeoff the orca is doing : more tank but less yield. If you had actually tried to understand the points mades here, you would had understood this basic notion. Proving you had no intent to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/279 "2019-10-12T19:39:11Z")
> [@Grumpy\_Goon](#): > > Then you can outmine the AFKer. Case closed. It’s not so cut and dry, actually. AFK Orca players don’t have to deal with boredom and burnout, and RL interruptions don’t affect their yield. The AFK pilot has the advantage of walking away from his PC and leaving his activity running, an active player does not have that luxury. Also, the AFK player has the additional advantage of being able to do other ISK generating or PvP activities in the game. The active player does not. So no, case is not closed, sorry bud. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/280 "2019-10-12T19:41:01Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > It’s not so cut and dry, actually. AFK Orca players don’t have to deal with boredom and burnout, and RL interruptions don’t affect their yield. But nobody cares. The issue was that AFK players had an unfair advantage when competing against barges. Actually, they don"t. case closed. ---
**Author:** ![Grumpy\_Goon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grumpy_goon/32/164601_2.png) [@Grumpy\_Goon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grumpy_Goon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/281 "2019-10-12T19:42:12Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > Also, the AFK player has the additional advantage of being able to do other ISK generating or PvP activities in the game. You mean like those who produce items? Or those that do PI? True, that should not be afk! I’ll pm Hilman immediately! ---
**Author:** ![Von\_Roshi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/von_roshi/32/164083_2.png) [@Von\_Roshi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Von_Roshi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/282 "2019-10-12T19:42:32Z")
A max trained orca with drone rigs using drones to mine ice has a cycle time of 49 seconds per block. This is roughly equal to an unboosted procurer with max skills and 2x ice upgrades. The orca has an ore hold that is more than 15 times larger than the procurer, and with 400k+ ehp tank. If we look at the skiff vs mackinkaw, they have equal mining rate, but the Mackinkaw gets an extra 20k ore hold while the skiff instead gets a very strong tank. So therefore as far as CCP are concerned, that extra 20k ore hold on the mackinkaw is worth a great deal, because the mackinkaw sacrifices all tank just for that extra 20km m3 ore hold. This is another thing that demonstrates how out of whack the orca is. CCP having demontrated how valued ore hold size is through the skiff-mackinkaw comparison, gave the Orca 185k m3 ore hold and the ability to mine at procurer rate. It’s this having an ore hold of 185k m3 on a mining ship that enables this situation where a player can afk mine for hours. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/283 "2019-10-12T19:43:41Z")
> [@Von\_Roshi](#): > > A max trained orca with drone rigs using drones to mine ice has a cycle time of 49 seconds per block. This is roughly equal to an unboosted procurer with max skills and 2x ice upgrades. The orca has an ore hold that is more than 15 times larger than the procurer with 400k+ ehp tank. > > If we look at the skiff vs mackinkaw, they have equal mining rate, but the Mackinkaw gets an extra 20k ore hold while the skiff instead of this gets a very strong tank. So therefore as far as CCP are concerned, that extra 20k ore hold on the mackinkaw is worth a great deal, because the skiff greats a very strong tank for having 20k less ore hold space. > > This is another thing that demonstrates how out of whack the orca is. Having an ore hold of 185k m3 on a mining ship is what enables it to afk mine for hours. Don’t forget the Procurer is going to have to warp to station when it’s full, absolutely obliterating the advantage of increased yield/minute, unless the Procurer has Orca support, in which case you are now comparing 2 ships to 1 in order to “even the odds”. It’s looking like the AFK Orcas are coming out on top. ---
**Author:** ![Grumpy\_Goon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grumpy_goon/32/164601_2.png) [@Grumpy\_Goon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grumpy_Goon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/284 "2019-10-12T19:44:36Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > you are now comparing 2 ships to 1 in order to “even the odds”. Did the miner have 1 or 20 ships? Let’s not be dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Von\_Roshi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/von_roshi/32/164083_2.png) [@Von\_Roshi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Von_Roshi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/285 "2019-10-12T19:44:51Z")
Yes that’s a good point too. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/286 "2019-10-12T19:45:05Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > It’s looking like the AFK Orcas are coming out on top. Says the guy that claims the drones don"t have travel time when you are close to the roid. > [@Grumpy\_Goon](#): > > Did the miner have 1 or 20 ships? Let’s not be dishonest. You are asking too much. For him 20 orcas should mine less than a single procurer. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/287 "2019-10-12T19:46:38Z")
> [@Grumpy\_Goon](#): > > > you are now comparing 2 ships to 1 in order to “even the odds”. > > Did the miner have 1 or 20 ships? Let’s not be dishonest. I’m comparing _ship_ type to _ship_ type. If you’d like to compare _fleet composition_ to _fleet composition_ then say so. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/288 "2019-10-12T19:47:23Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > If you’d like to compare _fleet composition_ to _fleet composition_ then say so. It was already said so since the moment we are talking about a FLEET of orcas mining, and people complaining that non-orca players could not compete. Learn to read. You hypocrisy is reaching over 9000 ---
**Author:** ![Grumpy\_Goon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grumpy_goon/32/164601_2.png) [@Grumpy\_Goon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grumpy_Goon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/289 "2019-10-12T19:48:45Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > If you’d like to compare _fleet composition_ to _fleet composition_ then say so. Look, This started as a “ban ice mining optimized players” . There is no one dropping 20 orcas in a random ore belt. You keep having to change the variables to get to your conclusion. That alone should tell you your conclusion might have a strong bias. Should people use orca’s to mine ice? Maybe not. Then ice drones could be removed, solving the problem you have not being able to get that ice miner off your property. ---
**Author:** ![Von\_Roshi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/von_roshi/32/164083_2.png) [@Von\_Roshi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Von_Roshi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/291 "2019-10-12T19:50:57Z")
Removing ice drones is one option. But it’s a bit nuclear. All they really need to do is implement a change that causes the mining drone not to auto repeat forever. Perhaps it should complete 10 cycles than cease to mine until further instructed. This is the kind of more simple change that can fix this. ---
**Author:** ![Grumpy\_Goon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grumpy_goon/32/164601_2.png) [@Grumpy\_Goon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grumpy_Goon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/292 "2019-10-12T19:51:50Z")
> [@Von\_Roshi](#): > > This is the kind of more simple change that can fix this. This is a convoluted way driving the average player off, what is this? PAYDAY 2? Will we have Drone drill skills soon? Remember you’ll be pwning the poor porpoise players too, but hey, you don’t care, as long as you get those pesky ice miners off your turf. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/293 "2019-10-12T19:52:21Z")
> [@Grumpy\_Goon](#): > > Look, > > This started as a “ban ice mining optimized players” . No, it didn’t. Reread the OP, he mentions the AFKability aspect of this whole thing. Then people started crunching numbers comparing the Orca to the Hulk, Mackinaw, bla bla bla, making disingenuous arguments about “drone travel time” bla bla bla. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/294 "2019-10-12T19:53:09Z")
a more simple change would be to decrease the ore hold, and increase the fleet hold as much. Giving it as much ore hold as mack, for the same amount of time (so actually like half) ---
**Author:** ![Von\_Roshi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/von_roshi/32/164083_2.png) [@Von\_Roshi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Von_Roshi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/295 "2019-10-12T19:53:26Z")
Not sure what you’re trying to say. I made a perfectly valid case for a simple way to fix the issue of orcas being able to afk mine for hours. Why do you have a problem with it? ---
**Author:** ![Von\_Roshi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/von_roshi/32/164083_2.png) [@Von\_Roshi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Von_Roshi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/296 "2019-10-12T19:54:59Z")
I’ve suggested something similar above. But people argued that it would make the orca an overpowered hauler. So I offered a different option. Give the orca two types of ore hold. An active one, where the orcas own mined ore goes. This would be smaller, about 20k m3. And a fleet one, much larger, where you can move the ore to. But it seems more simple just to make it so drones will only mine say 10 to 15 times before they need to be reordered to mine again. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526.md?page=15)