# Orcas should never have been turned into mining vessels **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 8, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526 "2019-10-08T19:08:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Grumpy\_Goon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grumpy_goon/32/164601_2.png) [@Grumpy\_Goon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grumpy_Goon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/317 "2019-10-12T20:08:15Z")
> [@Von\_Roshi](#): > > If the player is active, he’ll see his drone has stopped mining? Maybe they can make drones more active, like we have on capital ships. that way you could see if a drone is active or not? ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/318 "2019-10-12T20:08:27Z")
> [@Grumpy\_Goon](#): > > > Put your bitterness aside, bud. Ganking has nothing to do with what’s being discussed here. > > Haha, playing the emotion card? Well, since you have no facts, you better do that. Well, _I’m_ not the one rageflagging when people disagree with me. Pointing out that you’re utilizing emotional reasoning isn’t playing the “emotion card” it’s pointing out one of those facts you just mentioned. 😉 Roshi’s ideas are fair and balanced and would solve the problem of AFK Orcas, objectively. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/319 "2019-10-12T20:09:14Z")
> [@Grumpy\_Goon](#): > > that way you could see if a drone is active or not? … you already can. The game already _literally_ tells you what the drone is doing: 1. Fighting 2. Mining 3. Returning 4. Idle ---
**Author:** ![Grumpy\_Goon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grumpy_goon/32/164601_2.png) [@Grumpy\_Goon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grumpy_Goon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/320 "2019-10-12T20:09:41Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > _I’m_ not the one rageflagging when people disagree with me. I am new. I can’t flag people. Your arguments and assumptions are very bad. Your ingame and forum mechanics knowledge is very bad. But you feel very salty about those orca ice miners… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/321 "2019-10-12T20:10:21Z")
> [@Grumpy\_Goon](#): > > > _I’m_ not the one rageflagging when people disagree with me. > > I am new. I can’t flag people. Your arguments and assumptions are very bad. Your ingame and forum mechanics knowledge is very bad. But you feel very salty about those orca ice miners… 😃 On that character, maybe. BTW, thanks for proving my point with this rant. I love when people prove my points for me. 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/322 "2019-10-12T20:11:13Z")
Honestly still not seeing the fundamental game problem of this guy mining with 20 Orcas. Yes, it is low effort, low engagement, boring gameplay. Yes it does not interact with other people. Yes it basically adds nothing to the game except 20 subs to CCP’s pocket and cheaper minerals. It isn’t scaring away new players. It isn’t causing old players to quit in frustration. It isn’t causing _too_ much bad publicity/negative buzz for CCP in the general gaming topics. If we removed Orcas from the game tomorrow, he would shift to exhumers and a hauler. If we removed _mining_ from the game tomorrow, he would shift to AFK anomalies in carriers. This guy is _never_ going to be pushed into being “engaging content” for other players, so why not just leave him to his 20 subs and his 20 miners and his AFKing? The problem with EVE is not that he can AFK mine a whole anomaly. The problem with EVE is that the _basic design of EVE_ rewards passive gameplay far more than it rewards active gameplay. People are really only arguing over this because they don’t have tons of interesting stuff to do in-game, so they get hung up on all these red herrings. Make the rest of the game more interesting and active. Let the AFK miners do whatever they want, so long as they are paying for it. ---
**Author:** ![Grumpy\_Goon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grumpy_goon/32/164601_2.png) [@Grumpy\_Goon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grumpy_Goon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/323 "2019-10-12T20:11:20Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > I love when people prove my points for me. What more is there to proove that you need those orca ice miners out of your belt no matter what? If only you had some friends you could fight those orcas with… ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/324 "2019-10-12T20:12:00Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Yes, it is low effort, low engagement, boring gameplay. Yes it does not interact with other people. Yes it basically adds nothing to the game Found the problems. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/325 "2019-10-12T20:12:23Z")
> [@Grumpy\_Goon](#): > > What more is there to proove that you need those orca ice miners out of your belt no matter what? If only you had some friends you could fight those orcas with… I don’t mine ice. Really friend, you need to get your emotions in check. ---
**Author:** ![Grumpy\_Goon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grumpy_goon/32/164601_2.png) [@Grumpy\_Goon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grumpy_Goon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/326 "2019-10-12T20:13:54Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > I don’t mine ice. Really friend, you need to get your emotions in check. Sure, says the guy with all of his posts marked as inapropriate by 3rd party. I don’t mind posts, I like how you started with a fake narrative, then went full on personal insults becuase you knew you had no point to stand on and you somehow envy that lone ice miner in his 20 orcas. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/327 "2019-10-12T20:15:29Z")
> [@Grumpy\_Goon](#): > > Sure, says the guy with all of his posts marked as inapropriate by 3rd party. I don’t mind posts, I like how you started with a fake narrative, then went full on personal insults becuase you knew you had no point to stand on and you somehow envy that lone ice miner in his 20 orcas. 😃 Let’s see. First sentence is irrelevant, second sentence is a lie, third sentence is also a lie. Do you have anything true and valid to add to the discussion, or can I safely assume you’re ignorable at this point? ---
**Author:** ![Grumpy\_Goon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grumpy_goon/32/164601_2.png) [@Grumpy\_Goon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grumpy_Goon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/328 "2019-10-12T20:16:33Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > First sentence is irrelevant, second sentence is a lie, third sentence is also a lie. You have a lot of opinions you present as facts. Work on it. I’m sure you can one day have arguments on forums in a respectfull way. ---
**Author:** ![Grumpy\_Goon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/grumpy_goon/32/164601_2.png) [@Grumpy\_Goon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Grumpy_Goon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/330 "2019-10-12T20:18:28Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > When you’re ready to join the adults in mature discussion, then you will have the privilege of my attention. Sure, namecalling to show you are right. Over and over again. Respectfull discussions don’t work that way. ---
**Author:** ![Von\_Roshi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/von_roshi/32/164083_2.png) [@Von\_Roshi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Von_Roshi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/331 "2019-10-12T20:20:55Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Honestly still not seeing the fundamental game problem of this guy mining with 20 Orcas. > > Yes, it is low effort, low engagement, boring gameplay. Yes it does not interact with other people. Yes it basically adds nothing to the game except 20 subs to CCP’s pocket and cheaper minerals. > > It isn’t scaring away new players. It isn’t causing old players to quit in frustration. It isn’t causing _too_ much bad publicity/negative buzz for CCP in the general gaming topics. > > If we removed Orcas from the game tomorrow, he would shift to exhumers and a hauler. If we removed _mining_ from the game tomorrow, he would shift to AFK anomalies in carriers. This guy is _never_ going to be pushed into being “engaging content” for other players, so why not just leave him to his 20 subs and his 20 miners and his AFKing? > > The problem with EVE is not that he can AFK mine a whole anomaly. The problem with EVE is that the _basic design of EVE_ rewards passive gameplay far more than it rewards active gameplay. People are really only arguing over this because they don’t have tons of interesting stuff to do in-game, so they get hung up on all these red herrings. > > Make the rest of the game more interesting and active. Let the AFK miners do whatever they want, so long as they are paying for it. Major changes like removing orcas from the game are not necessary. The issue is caused by a combination of factors. These factors are the oversized orehold and massive ehp, combined with the ability to mine at a rate as good as a procurer. Other mining ships can’t go afk for long periods because their ore holds will overflow. The mackinkaw can manage the longest time afk among the barges, with it’s 35k ore ore hold. It’s risky because you might get blown up, because mackinkaw has a very low EHP. This was designed this way on purpose. Which is why the skiff was given massive tank but only 15k m3 ore hold. They didn’t want to you afk mine efficiently in total safety. The Orca can afk mine for far longer than the mackinkaw, with it’s nearly 6 times larger ore hold (185k m3). And there is no risk because EHP is massive, around 3 times more EHP than even a skiff. It’s clear to me, that the orca is a mining ship that has the main advantages of both the skiff (strong tank) and the mackinkaw (large ore hold). Only the orca’s numbers on these far exceeds the skiff and mackinkaw by several times. Insane ship. A mechanism that stops the orca from mining afk for hours on end is needed. You can’t shrink the ore hold or the orca ceases to be good mining fleet support. You could simply remove mining ability from orcas, but i don’t think it’s needed. A simple solution is to make mining drones only complete 15 cycles before going to idle. That is the same as the other tanked miner can achieve, the skiff. 15 cycles and if you’re afk you need to return and reactivate the mining. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/332 "2019-10-12T20:20:59Z")
> [@Xuixien](#): > > > Yes, it is low effort, low engagement, boring gameplay. Yes it does not interact with other people. Yes it basically adds nothing to the game > > Found the problems. I understand that you feel other players have a duty to play only in ways you approve of in order to entertain you. However you have not established how a player paying 20 subs to CCP so he can mine with 20 accounts that he trained into 20 Orcas with (all paid activity) is bad for the game. All you’ve stated is that you find his playstyle boring and low quality. If you eliminated his playstyle tomorrow, all you would accomplish is reducing CCP’s income and player base even further than they already are. It seems the PvP crowd can only see a game in which everyone is their target, and they continue eliminating things until there is nothing left. Which is pretty much what’s been going on for years now. > [@Von\_Roshi](#): > > Major changes like removing orcas from the game are not necessary. The issue is caused by a combination of factors. These factors are the oversized orehold and massive ehp, combined with the ability to mine at a rate as good as a procurer. Please see above. You can talk about how the Orca is OP all you like. You have not, as far as I can see, anywhere in this entire thread, established that a guy paying 20 accounts to mine in 20 Orcas is _bad for the game_. All you keep pointing out is that it is _fairly effective and safe and low attention_, and that this somehow irritates you and must be changed. “See look this system is almost empty, must be because he mines here!” is a completely specious argument and has nothing to do with him. I’ve had a character parked in Teonosude for years, it’s a low activity area. That’s probably why he chose it. 99% of players passing through it would never even be aware he is there. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/333 "2019-10-12T20:25:30Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > I understand that you feel other players have a duty to play only in ways you approve of in order to entertain you. Yes, that’s the actual reason he keeps crying on the forum. He lacks the ability to understand that such a game is bound to die faster, because he is not providing anything and wants all other players to only provide him content. He is a self-entitled carebear. ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Project](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/32/479741_2.png) [@Solecist\_Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Project)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/334 "2019-10-12T20:29:12Z")
In all seriousness … Do you honestly not mine in a max yield fitted Covetor or Hulk? ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/336 "2019-10-12T20:32:49Z")
Nah man Procurers all the way. Dying wastes time and time is money. Fit them right in the Ship Maintenance Bay. Only wish my capsules could “dock” in the Orca, would seriously reduce lag while traveling my fleet through gates. ---
**Author:** ![Von\_Roshi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/von_roshi/32/164083_2.png) [@Von\_Roshi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Von_Roshi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/337 "2019-10-12T20:38:38Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > > [@Xuixien](#): > > > > > Yes, it is low effort, low engagement, boring gameplay. Yes it does not interact with other people. Yes it basically adds nothing to the game > > > > Found the problems. > > I understand that you feel other players have a duty to play only in ways you approve of in order to entertain you. However you have not established how a player paying 20 subs to CCP so he can mine with 20 accounts that he trained into 20 Orcas with (all paid activity) is bad for the game. > > All you’ve stated is that you find his playstyle boring and low quality. If you eliminated his playstyle tomorrow, all you would accomplish is reducing CCP’s income and player base even further than they already are. > > It seems the PvP crowd can only see a game in which everyone is their target, and they continue eliminating things until there is nothing left. > > Which is pretty much what’s been going on for years now. > > > [@Von\_Roshi](#): > > > > Major changes like removing orcas from the game are not necessary. The issue is caused by a combination of factors. These factors are the oversized orehold and massive ehp, combined with the ability to mine at a rate as good as a procurer. > > Please see above. You can talk about how the Orca is OP all you like. You have not, as far as I can see, anywhere in this entire thread, established that a guy paying 20 accounts to mine in 20 Orcas is _bad for the game_. > > All you keep pointing out is that it is _fairly effective and safe and low attention_, and that this somehow irritates you and must be changed. > > “See look this system is almost empty, must be because he mines here!” is a completely specious argument and has nothing to do with him. I’ve had a character parked in Teonosude for years, it’s a low activity area. That’s probably why he chose it. 99% of players passing through it would never even be aware he is there. Where i find these mass orca groups mining I never seen to find other miners. One might discern that other people are put off from mining in a crowded area where a person has an orca on every single roid. ![orcas](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/9/b/9bba4aebc55eb7b5398b260e9217fab9c2c6950b.jpeg) ![orcas2](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/7/d/7d4a8cc1d4f5a62fe5885588d05d2f4f785a77bf.jpeg) ![orcas3](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/3/0/309ea9bb251096029c04f0ad364f74fa2d6a3d54.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Von\_Roshi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/von_roshi/32/164083_2.png) [@Von\_Roshi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Von_Roshi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526/338 "2019-10-12T20:44:53Z")
Kezrai Charzai, perhaps you could try to explain why he uses 20 orcas, instead of 20 mackinkaws. Could it be because the orcas have such a large ore hold that he won’t even have to do a single haul in order to fully mine everything out? And similarly, he won’t even have to click any buttons. He could go to bed and come back in 2 hours and all is finished. And also because he can be pretty sure that even if he is afk he knows nobody is going to gank him. And finally the fact that his mining rate is only slightly slower than a Mackinkaw is no problem at all. Gotta feel sorry for people who use mackinkaws these days. Sooner or later they’ll be ganked. Should have brought an orca. I said it above and i’ll say it again, the orca takes the strengths of the mackinkaw (large ore hold) and the skiff (strong tank) for itself, it multiplies these strengths several times over. And the only downside is that its mining rate is a little slower. And that fact is utterly negated by the massive ore hold, meaning it hardly needs to haul. If you have a ton of them you won’t need to do a single haul. The whole point of the mackinkaw having such a weak tank is because it has a 35k m3 ore hold, the biggest among barges. The orca has a 185k m3 ore hold and 3x more EHP than a godly tanked skiff! [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526.md?page=15) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/orcas-should-never-have-been-turned-into-mining-vessels/194526.md?page=17)