# \[ORMUR\] Kahah Crisis - Mercenaries deployed \[Updated\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654 "2018-10-24T20:47:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/65 "2018-11-02T00:06:31Z")
Black hand aside (ya, that was overboard and I’d think most would agree), did your group speak out against any mercenary outfits? If so you took a side to some people. ---
**Author:** ![KnightGuard\_Fury](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knightguard_fury/32/384023_2.png) [@KnightGuard\_Fury](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/KnightGuard_Fury)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/66 "2018-11-02T00:20:49Z")
As far as I’m aware no. We only sought after black hand, once and if we got permission to make planet fall that is, and as of our latest version of our charter any warclone/elysion mercenaries particpating in illegal and criminal offences will be considered a target for our organization to go after. That added on to the fact of WMD’s we couldn’t just ignore that. ---
**Author:** ![Galm\_Eskola-Fae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galm_eskola-fae/32/511580_2.png) [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galm_Eskola-Fae)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 2:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/67 "2018-11-02T02:00:51Z")
I suppose now that I don’t need to worry about upsetting the Khanid, I can make things a bit more clear. As our Warden @KnightGuard_Fury stated our entire operation _as we said from the very beginning_ was focused on the Black Hand and any other rogue warsclones in the region. We do not identify with the Khanid or their goals in this struggle, we had no intention of collaborating with those goals. We weren’t picking sides when we asked to act as an auxiliary attached to the Uhlans, we were just merely hoping to gain the approval of the local forces with the understanding that they would be far more willing to allow us to operate in the region if we were under their watch. It wasn’t choosing a side, it was a matter of asking nicely before barging into someone’s home. As you can imagine a fair amount of politicking is involved in that, and we can’t very well strike any sort of formal alliance with local rebel factions when you actively require the approval of the established government to operate in the region. Hence my attempts to reach a tacit understanding that any matari rebel forces stay out of our way and we stay out of theirs. Attempts that were met with aggressive bravado that, while normally I would applaud, didn’t really help our situation or convince me that the mercenary groups wouldn’t be an unnecessary complication in hunting down the Hand. Ergo, acting on my own volition within a margin of acceptable behavior that I deemed necessary _(and without the explicit permission of my superiors mind you, before you go conflating my failures with that of the Accords)_ I hatched the ill-fated plan that would have allowed us to peacefully capture enough of the mercenaries so we could reach an understanding and agree to a parley that would at the very least keep them out of our hair for the time being. Maybe we could have even found some way to exchange prisoners for information without it seeming like we are directly collaborating with rebels to the Khanid. You will note that all of this sounds like overly complicated bollocks that probably could have been solved in face to face communication rather than through violence. **_But in the end, didn’t I explicitly say this bloody crisis would turn into a quagmire?_** Frankly I’m glad SARO is finally moving in and doing their job so we can pull out before this misunderstanding got any worse. Next time we need to intervene somewhere I’ll just be very direct about who we do and don’t plan to shoot. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 8:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/68 "2018-11-02T08:06:30Z")
You and yours attacked assets belonging to one of us, “war clones” not even being involved in any way. You can try however hard you want to twist and turn this, but that means you picked a side, and it was the wrong one. If you want to undo this, that’s up to you, but until you do you kind of have to accept the fact that you’re an armed enemy combatant as far as some of us are concerned. You know, given that you unprovoked attacked _us_, as we are engaged in matters pertaining to _our_ people and their well-being. What the hell did you expect? ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 8:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/69 "2018-11-02T08:24:25Z")
And he’s trying to menace people in a Tayra. A Tayra! ---
**Author:** ![Vlad\_Cetes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vlad_cetes/32/391891_2.png) [@Vlad\_Cetes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vlad_Cetes)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 8:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/70 "2018-11-02T08:57:26Z")
> [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](#): > > Frankly I’m glad SARO is finally moving in and doing their job so we can pull out before this misunderstanding got any worse Then SARO should do the same and allow the Black Hand to complete its mission. The WMDs leave when the target is eliminated. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 9:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/71 "2018-11-02T09:10:47Z")
> [@KnightGuard\_Fury](#): > > We want to intervene because Black Hand posed a threat > [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](#): > > _as we said from the very beginning_ was focused on the Black Hand and any other rogue warsclones in the region Then why did you come after my FOB? I have no relations with the Black Hand neither do I want to have anything to do with them. > [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](#): > > Hence my attempts to reach a tacit understanding that any matari rebel forces stay out of our way and we stay out of theirs. Attempts that were met with aggressive bravado that, while normally I would applaud, didn’t really help our situation or convince me that the mercenary groups wouldn’t be an unnecessary complication in hunting down the Hand. Well, you implied violence on my mercenaries, I implied that they would not go down without a fight. That’s all. As I said they would keep out of the way of obviously superior forces, but should they be surrounded by your warclones, they’d know they’d been in a fight at the end of the day. > [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](#): > > I hatched the ill-fated plan that would have allowed us to peacefully capture enough of the mercenaries so we could reach an understanding and agree to a parley that would at the very least keep them out of our hair for the time being. It would have helped your planning if, like I said, you’d have brought a scanner with you as there were only 20 mercenaries onboard the FOB at the time. Or, like you said, if you’d just contacted me about it and trust me on what I say. I had hoped that in my career as capsuleer I’d established myself as someone honest and fair, but I guess not. > [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](#): > > Next time we need to intervene somewhere I’ll just be very direct about who we do and don’t plan to shoot. Sounds good. Mistakes were made and hopefully learned from. > [@Makoto\_Priano](#): > > And he’s trying to menace people in a Tayra. A Tayra! Tayra is a redesign of the venerable Badger a.k.a. “Battle Badger”, is it not? I’m sufficiently terrified. ---
**Author:** ![Galm\_Eskola-Fae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galm_eskola-fae/32/511580_2.png) [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galm_Eskola-Fae)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 9:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/72 "2018-11-02T09:30:08Z")
> [@Vlad\_Cetes](#): > > Then SARO should do the same and allow the Black Hand to complete its mission. The WMDs leave when the target is eliminated. Do you want your people to get purged? _Because this is how you get purged._ ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 9:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/73 "2018-11-02T09:38:36Z")
The funny thing about neutrality is it works best when undeclared. The second you decide to tell people “We don’t pick sides”, your actions from then on become scrutinized. You cannot truthfully declare neutrality and then choose to target either side, however “peacefully” you might hope the resolution to be. You either engage both sides or neither. Choosing to engage forces in support of the Rebels places you, deliberately or not, on the side of the Khanid. > [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](#): > > other rogue warsclones in the region I’m interested in your definition of “rogue” here. Anyone outside the Khanid? Outside Project Avalon? It would seem to be rather difficult to class any organised group of warclones as “rogue”, especially due to the nature of mercenaries. ---
**Author:** ![Galm\_Eskola-Fae](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galm_eskola-fae/32/511580_2.png) [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galm_Eskola-Fae)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 10:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/74 "2018-11-02T10:02:29Z")
> [@Kalaratiri](#): > > You cannot truthfully declare neutrality and then choose to target either side, however “peacefully” you might hope the resolution to be. You either engage both sides or neither. Again, I think you may be confusing our stance on “neutrality.” To restate: > [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](#): > > Our neutrality only extends to the Big Four, not paramilitaries fighting on behalf of capsuleers. * * * > [@Kalaratiri](#): > > I’m interested in your definition of “rogue” here. Anyone outside the Khanid? Outside Project Avalon? It would seem to be rather difficult to class any organised group of warclones as “rogue”, especially due to the nature of mercenaries. I’d say illegally smuggling nuclear weapons planetside with the stated goal of using them in populated areas to assassinate a political target in an act of terrorism is a fair example of “rogue” warclones. If your insinuation is that this whole situation is a thinly veiled attempt to muscle out mercenaries that aren’t a member of the Accords or Project Avalon, I deeply resent that accusation. Generally we endeavour to leave mercenaries not connected to the Accords to their own devices. We only intervene and classify warclones as “rogue” when they have committed acts that prove an unnecessary risk to mortal life, violate the Yulai Convention on rules of war, or prove extreme negligence that leads to either previously stated cases. ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 10:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/75 "2018-11-02T10:10:51Z")
> [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](#): > > If your insinuation is that this whole situation is a thinly veiled attempt to muscle out mercenaries that aren’t a member of the Accords or Project Avalon, I deeply resent that accusation It was a question, not an insinuation. A group cannot be “rogue” unless there is some overarching body for them to be “rogue” from. > [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](#): > > Generally we endeavour to leave mercenaries not connected to the Accords to their own devices. Interesting statement, given recent events. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 3:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/76 "2018-11-02T15:30:45Z")
> [@Galm\_Eskola-Fae](#): > > We only intervene and classify warclones as “rogue” when they have committed acts that prove an unnecessary risk to mortal life, violate the Yulai Convention on rules of war, or prove extreme negligence that leads to either previously stated cases. You mean like indiscriminately targeting civilian populations? Better go deal with those rogue Uhlans and Cyberknights, friend. ---
**Author:** ![Woodrow\_Ormand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/woodrow_ormand/32/467230_2.png) [@Woodrow\_Ormand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Woodrow_Ormand)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/77 "2018-11-03T02:07:03Z")
I’ve been sitting and watching this event unfold and one thing that did, in fact, happen and isn’t brought up is the chemical attack the blood raiders launched on the Minmatar people on the ground. Now, before I continue, let me preface. What the Uhlans are doing is deplorable, launching attacks on the peaceful Minmatar people is uncalled for and unnecessary. Now, let’s continue, based on my observations over the last week, it appears that the chemical weapon that was launched on the minmatar slave populations was a mix of insorum, a treatment/cure for the vitoc drug, whatever term you use the outcome is the same, and deathglow, which is a strong hallucinogenic. This drug appears to turn the affected humans into very violent killers that could very well be as harmful to the unaffected Minmatar as they are to the Khanid. This chemical attack by the blood raiders has caused the violence, which is seen in the peaceful Minmatar populations who were not hit by the chemical attack. I will reiterate, that the extreme actions of the Khanid against all Minmatar populations on the planet, indiscriminately, is awful and should be opposed, but thanks to the blood raiders, this is not a wholly one sided issue. Anyone who knows me knows that I oppose all forms of slavery, but this situation isn’t as simple it is laid out to be. If those violent Minmatar, which were affected by the deathglow get nuclear weapons, it’s not a question of if they will use them, it will be a question of how many they will use, and on who they will use them on. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrel\_Toov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tyrel_toov/32/387953_2.png) [@Tyrel\_Toov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tyrel_Toov)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 3:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/78 "2018-11-03T03:04:22Z")
> [@Woodrow\_Ormand](#): > > it will be a question of how many they will use, and on who they will use them on. It may be my bias speaking, but any nuke used to kill slavers is a nuke well deployed. ---
**Author:** ![Woodrow\_Ormand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/woodrow_ormand/32/467230_2.png) [@Woodrow\_Ormand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Woodrow_Ormand)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 3:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/79 "2018-11-03T03:43:35Z")
And if they used it on other Minmatar on the planet? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 6:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/80 "2018-11-03T06:59:02Z")
> [@Woodrow\_Ormand](#): > > If those violent Minmatar, which were affected by the deathglow You mean the ones who were the _first_ targets of the Khanid Cyberknight/Uhlan offensives, and formed a significant percentage of the first day’s seven million casualties? Call me crazy, but I’m not too worried about what the dead will do with a nuke. ---
**Author:** ![Woodrow\_Ormand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/woodrow_ormand/32/467230_2.png) [@Woodrow\_Ormand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Woodrow_Ormand)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 7:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/81 "2018-11-03T07:12:23Z")
I haven’t seen any confirmation that they killed everyone who was infected, and like I said before, the actions of the Khanid are atrocious, but saying that the violence started because of anything except the deathglow is being disingenuous ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 7:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/82 "2018-11-03T07:16:25Z")
The deathglow compound is not the cause of the widening circles of revolts through the system. The rebelling slaves would not, after all, be _rebelling_ if they were arming themselves to defend against those members of the population who have been effected by deathglow. Further, if this is the same agent uses on Osis—as indicated—there is no reporting of lingering effects among the affected population. To say that the continued violence _is_ because of the deathglow isn’t disingenuous, it’s just _foolish_. ---
**Author:** ![Woodrow\_Ormand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/woodrow_ormand/32/467230_2.png) [@Woodrow\_Ormand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Woodrow_Ormand)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 7:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/83 "2018-11-03T07:22:49Z")
I just rememberd that you are a self proclaimed pedant. Since that is the case, I see no reason to continue to engage with you. You are not helping and are only causing harm ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 7:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654/84 "2018-11-03T07:24:08Z")
Ah, another who likes to make dramatic statements before running away when they can’t actually refute the argument against them. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ormur-kahah-crisis-mercenaries-deployed-updated/115654.md?page=5)