# Peace in our time **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2019, 7:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244 "2019-09-07T07:23:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 9:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/61 "2019-09-09T09:44:37Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > This is a very tired PR line. it is simplistic and reductive in the extreme and represents a complete failure to understand the peaceful reconciliation that Heideran’s theology attempted to work towards. Attempted, yes. The thing is, the concessions didn’t go far enough. Reclaiming has to be denounced as a false ideology at the least. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > We get it, you are angry. Speaking of tired PR lines… I am not angry, and I have not engaged in war of revenge against the Amarr to this day. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > And go ahead and keep scoffing at the idea that any amount of concessions on Amarr’s part would ever be enough. There are concessions that would be enough. Have been named billions of times. Denounce the Reclaiming. Let our people go free. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > But trying to pretend that significant concessions weren’t made by three successive Amarr Emperors is just willful ignorance. I wasn’t pretending anything of the sort. I am simply saying, as long as the threat of Reclaiming exists and trillions of slaves are kept by the Amarr, the work is only halfway. Simple as that. And I understand you don’t see the Reclaiming as a threat. We do. ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 9:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/62 "2019-09-09T09:46:02Z")
> I burnt your village down, murdered and enslaved your family, and kept your ancestors prisoner for a thousand years. > I don’t like that. > Well _fine_, if you’re going to be like that I guess I _could_ recognise you as a human being. > I’m still angry. > YOU’RE BEING UNREASONABLE! ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 9:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/63 "2019-09-09T09:59:53Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > This is a very tired PR line. it is simplistic and reductive in the extreme and represents a complete failure to understand the peaceful reconciliation that Heideran’s theology attempted to work towards. With respect, Admiral - Heideran worked for those policies. But _he failed_. And my guess is, had Minmatar co-operated with him more, he’d have _failed faster_ - the opposition to his policies from your people internally would have been harder still. Karin Midular tried to buy the Amarr time for that permanent peaceful solution, as much she tried to buy time for us. It is not that Minmatar policy of “saying nice dog until you find a bigger stick” means you have to use that stick, if the dog decides to just go away. Buying time until you got your act together would have also worked. But my Chief _also failed_. We all failed. Can you really, honestly, suggest that seeing this, it would have been a good policy not prepare for the next round, to instead have just sat and _hoped_ that they succeed? Because all faults that I can see in how things are going - I cannot. Because all Heiderans and Doriams and Kernhers and Newelles of this world, while I appreciate their sentiments and their work - they cannot guarantee that they will succeed. And when they fail, it is _us_ who pay the price. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 10:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/64 "2019-09-09T10:12:06Z")
Yes. That peace failed. Peace is out of reach until the reasons that Midular and Heideran’s peace failed have been dealt with. And peace will probably still be out of reach after that. But maybe it will be slightly more likely. But, for now, I think the priority for anyone who wants peace should be dealing with the blooders. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 12:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/65 "2019-09-09T12:10:28Z")
I think that is a splendid idea. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/66 "2019-09-09T13:19:51Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > Reclaiming has to be denounced as a false ideology at the least. It won’t, and it isn’t. What it has been used to justify is wrong. Not the ideology itself. ---
**Author:** ![Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melisma_ramijozana/32/168474_2.png) [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melisma_Ramijozana)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/67 "2019-09-09T13:30:07Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > But, for now, I think the priority for anyone who wants peace should be dealing with the blooders. > [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](#): > > I think that is a splendid idea. > **[Blood Raiders Stronghold | Blood Raiders | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/77976600/)** > > (Blood Raiders) lost their Blood Raiders Stronghold in Jarizza (Derelik). Final Blow by Aria Jenneth (Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque) flying in a Abaddon. Total Value: 136,234,569.61 ISK Does this cover the price of admission? I’ve allied myself with Amarr loyalist interests. Supported their initiatives fighting Triglavians and Blood Raiders. Lived with them. Socialized with them. All in the name of peace, all at detriment to my personal standing among my own people. So when I ask that you listen to me, I dearly hope that you will listen. You offer us peace, but there’s a sword dangling over our heads. That sword is the Reclaiming. You say that because of the efforts of past rulers like Heideran and Jamyl, the threat of a forced Reclaiming is no longer something that we should fear. But you offer no proof of that. Meanwhile, the proof _against_ it are the billions of Matari still in bondage in the Empire, more often than not living in subhuman conditions. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > And that is because of the Reclaiming, there will be a next round. I’ve been taught about Heideran. And I largely agree that we Matari are ignoring his attempted lessons. There’s a reason for that: Too many high-ranking Amarr are trampling over his work even worse than we are. Your Theology Council pretends to have an interest in upholding your religious law, but in truth, they only care about upholding the current status quo. Keeping themselves at the top of the heap. Keeping everyone else—in particular, everyone they consider to be _barbaric_, under their heels. As of the most recent statistics I could find, the second and third most populous ethnicities in the Empire, after True Amarr, are Brutor and Sebiestor. So, what happens if they are all freed? Suddenly the Empire has a significant Matari political bloc. Why do you think Jamyl only freed up to the ninth generation? Distribution of power. This way, True Amarr remain the outspoken majority, with little threat of a newly empowered Matari class to disrupt your privilege. > [@Arrendis](#): > > You want peace? Free the rest of them. You don’t even have to kick them out. Just go from paying their upkeep to paying _them_ for their upkeep, so they can turn around and pay taxes and worry about paying the bills like everyone else. Most of them will probably even want to stay, since the Empire’s all they’ve ever known. This is a correct assessment. I’ve had the chance to speak with some of my enslaved kin personally (and not in the context of rioting). Most of them would remain and continue to contribute to the Empire after being freed. Unless that’s what you fear? Anyway, what I’m saying is this: _you_ say that a forced Reclaiming is off the table and we should no longer act in fear of it. But _your leadership in the Theology Council says_ through its actions of keeping our kin enslaved and also introducing a known blooder who regularly makes anti-Matari remarks into its membership that _yeah baby_, a Reclamation of invasion and oppression is still totally on. So why should we believe two (or more) capsuleers, who would seem to have done very little towards ensuring that a fresh invasion is no longer in the cards, over the folks who pretty much get to decide that? And sure, you might have some backdoor dealings going on, whispering here and there, but remember that we are looking at this from the outside, and _from_ the outside, you seem to be all IGS posts and no action. Meanwhile, you want us to get rid of the influences that poisoned Midular’s work. There are four or five topics here on the IGS where quite a few of us are _doing just that_, at great cost to our political standings, our clans’ safety, and our personal health. One of us just challenged the RSS head-on. And I am literally leading my clan in searching for political game pieces in violation of a standing order _not to._ I’m not even on Matar often these days. Every time I hear my clan chief’s voice, it’s a relief. Every time I land at home and the factories and gers are still standing and all 1,357 of my clan are still alive, it’s a relief. So we’re gonna need a bit more than bluster from you. Maybe try standing up to the Theology Council instead of kissing Chakaid’s ass. Maybe try convincing the Holders around you to free and then employ their slaves. Maybe try not killing Matari in the war zone. Maybe try contributing to rehabilitation efforts of slaves freed but still suffering from vitoxin and TCMCs. And do it publicly, rather than hiding it because you’re afraid of retribution. Nothing of use has ever been completed in cowardice. That’s why many of us on the Matari side are standing up, despite the risks. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > Denounce the Reclaiming. Let our people go free. These are our terms. Meet them, and more of us will come to the table. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/68 "2019-09-09T13:56:04Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > It won’t, and it isn’t. > > What it has been used to justify is wrong. Not the ideology itself. I know it won’t. Which is why we are debating this crap endlesly. The ideology of Reclaiming _gives no choice_ about accepting the Amarrian faith. Accept it, and be subsumed. Don’t accept it, and be subsumed by force. If there is a view on Reclaiming that doesn’t operate on these principles, it must be in a very small minority. ---
**Author:** ![Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/melisma_ramijozana/32/168474_2.png) [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Melisma_Ramijozana)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 2:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/69 "2019-09-09T14:11:43Z")
There is a small, growing, and exceedingly nonvocal number of Amarrians of influence that are coming to believe that the best way to Reclaim people is to provide a more beneficial view of their god through leadership and good works, then teaching the faith to those who find this view attractive and arrive at the faith by choice. I have absolutely nothing against this approach. While I personally dislike the faith for my own reasons, I’m not inclined to stop those who find solace within it. But the Amarrians who support this only do so in their dinner halls and private lounges, so they have the effect of having no effect. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/70 "2019-09-09T14:31:52Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > We get it, you are angry. Then you don’t get it. You don’t get it _at all_. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/71 "2019-09-09T16:43:16Z")
> [@Melisma\_Ramijozana](#): > > Does this cover the price of admission? No, because there never was a price of admission. The issue is not that we all need to meet some quota of pirate killing, but that as long as the Blooder infiltrations into Amarr society are still extant conversations about the reclaiming are just so much noise. I could get into the weeds on the many different possible interpretations of reclaiming theology as it exists today and about the possibilities for permanent peace under a reclaiming ideology. I could also get into weeds on the issue of scriptural additions and their effect on the question of whether Amarr can change course. There are also a bunch of issues concerning whether the rubric of reclaiming is even relevant for talking about Amarr relations with a group that was once part of Amarr but rebelled. But it would be just so much pointless noise. The blood raider infiltrations into Amarr society are too blatant and have produced notable figures who seem to associate higher body counts with success in the Reclaiming. Blood Raider actions make up a large part of the reason why Midular and Heideran’s peace failed, and even a successful fight to remove them will change enough about Amarr society that the issues blocking peace will quite likely be quite different than they are today. ---
**Author:** ![Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ange_des_larmes/32/304752_2.png) [@Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ange_des_Larmes)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/72 "2019-09-09T20:00:05Z")
This whole thread has been incredibly depressing. I have to admit, the issue of slavery was the biggest hurdle I had to overcome when learning about the Amarr faith and it still shakes me to my core. Somehow Arrendis knew this because Arrendis somehow always seems to know what is going on inside my head at any given second and clearly it is why, in part at least, it has come up in recent discussions we have had in the Summit. I was - would it be crass to say ‘sold’? - on the idea of slavery by Archbishop Baracca telling me the scriptural basis of slavery in lay terms. As any of you here would attest, I am no wordsmith so I do not even go so far as to suggest I am paraphrasing but I shall explain it as I understand it. The act of owning a slave is one of responsibility. It is the role of the Holder to ensure they are not only kept well, but to ensure they are spiritually nourished. To impart the faith in a manner through which you would lead the slave to their own freedom as any true believer should go free. This is why Empress Jamyll ordered that all ninth generation+ slaves be freed as, by that point, it is clear that family of Holders has not held up their pastoral responsibilities. I witnessed this in action in the Kingdom with a Holder in Ashi that I shall not name and it worked almost like a system of _noblesse oblige_ which is what ultimately swayed me. Now many, possibly rightly, will say that I saw what individuals intended me to see. I cannot attest to that. What I can attest to, however, is that it is clear - both historically and presently - a proportion of Holders are not treating their slaves well and are not attempting to impart the faith. How big a proportion is an argument for another time but that general premise is a starting point which I am sure both sides will agree on. The problem as I see it - parking the Reclaiming for a second as that is equally complex - is would abandoning slavery deliver peace? And the answer is no. Would it go some way? Yes. But would all slaves want to be freed? Perhaps not. If they are being looked after and educated in a faith they believe in in fair exchange for labour, many may wish to stay with their Holders. But by keeping that dynamic of slave and holder, a cultural memory of those who have been mistreated will always echo. It will probably echo beyond the end of slavery, even, making it a wound that cannot be healed. So could the end of the Reclaiming end conflict? No for the same reasons above. No Minmatar faction would believe Empress Catiz if she turned around and said that the Reclaiming was complete. If anything, it may send the Matari war machine into overdrive. However, a more peaceful Reclaiming such as that I believe is espoused by LUMEN may lead to greater chances of peace as, yes there is still a Reclaiming, but you can see how we’re doing it and it’s with goods not guns. I guess it is only just now that I realised that there probably can never be a true peace between the Amarr and the Minmatar unless a viable existential threat to both forced them together. Should one stop seeking it, however? No. Hope is the only thing that keeps us human. Once we lose that, we become but monsters. But ignore me. I’m a Khanid-sympathising Intaki who used to be in the New Order. No-one listens to anything I have to say for just that alone. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/73 "2019-09-09T20:20:53Z")
As it is, and what is at heart of this conversation, is that we Minmatar see the Amarr empire as a whole, an existential threat, and we have not been convinced otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/74 "2019-09-09T20:51:24Z")
“We were wrong, enslavement is not a path to God. Forcing our beliefs on the universe was a mistake. Children, you are now free to come, to stay or to leave. We can only ask for your forgiveness.” Would go a long way. Would it solve everything? Heck no. But it’d be a start. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrel\_Toov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tyrel_toov/32/387953_2.png) [@Tyrel\_Toov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tyrel_Toov)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/75 "2019-09-09T22:39:21Z")
> [@Ange\_des\_Larmes](#): > > I guess it is only just now that I realised that there probably can never be a true peace between the Amarr and the Minmatar unless a viable existential threat to both forced them together. Even that wouldn’t be a true peace. Once we are done with the outside threat, we’ll be back at each other’s throats. Just ask DHSJ. ---
**Author:** ![Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ange_des_larmes/32/304752_2.png) [@Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ange_des_Larmes)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 5:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/76 "2019-09-10T05:03:18Z")
In all honesty, I fully expected that to be the case as well. I would posit that violence is so primal - so essential to the basic workings of the human psyche - that real peace will be an impossibility without removing emotions with it. And I don’t believe that to be a realistic or viable trade-off. However, as I said before, we can still hope and work towards a goal even knowing it is probably impossible because there is always that 0.000000001% chance that it might happen. Whilst there is a chance, there is hope. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 5:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/77 "2019-09-10T05:13:11Z")
And, much like Gaven, you don’t get it at all, either. But let’s face it, this is not the place for real discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrel\_Toov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tyrel_toov/32/387953_2.png) [@Tyrel\_Toov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tyrel_Toov)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 6:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/78 "2019-09-10T06:52:29Z")
We have already given our terms for peace. The Amarr won’t agree to them, so there will be no peace. Discussion over. ---
**Author:** ![Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ange_des_larmes/32/304752_2.png) [@Ange\_des\_Larmes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ange_des_Larmes)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 6:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/79 "2019-09-10T06:58:51Z")
What is it that I don’t get? Honestly. I would like to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 7:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244/80 "2019-09-10T07:13:05Z")
In order for there to be a permanent peace, the Amarr want the Minmatar to be less Minmatar about everything, while the Minmatar want the Amarr to be less Amarr about everything. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/peace-in-our-time/188244.md?page=5)