# Pi market is dead **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [November 23, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430 "2020-11-23T21:11:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 12:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/106 "2020-12-04T12:24:06Z")
Hotels are classified as an Asset in Monopoly and like Properties can be morgaged off versus debt or leveraged as capital with the bank in lieu of payment of debt. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/107 "2020-12-04T14:11:36Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > A small gang may have taken down a structure they originally put up for convenience because of the changes. But it may not have been destroyed. > > More difficult times for them yes. But their wealth is unaffected. In fact, the running costs of the structure are no longer a wealth sink for them. So your answer to “destruction does not remove inequality” is “hey, maybe destruction never even occurred!”. This is the same level of thinking as the people who complain about too much farming and carebearing, but when you point out to them that EVE is not actually a PvP game, their answer is “everything is PvP”. To trend back to the topic: the PI market drops for several reasons, but the primary issue is that the supply is currently outstripping demand, so PI suppliers who want their money now are forced to price lower. The reason for lower demand will be due to several factors, some as simple as the new market fee changes altering the patterns of buy/sell/trade/relist and hoarding. Disrupted manufacturing routes caused by Pochven, etc. The primary reason however is shown in the stats and MERs this year: production of goods is down, destruction of items is up, and player activity is declining overall, including logins. Citadels were targeted for destruction and reduction, and Trigs have taken to roaming Jita space. This leads to many players pulling back from the came, slowing some activities and cancelling others. The fallacy that “destruction will drive activity” becomes readily apparent: players don’t get their stuff destroyed by mechanics changes and NPCs and then strive to replace them. They realize the game is rigged, that CCP is effectively scamming the player base, and they reduce gameplay. With less play comes less consumption. CCP isn’t fixing the economy. They’re slowly driving off the player base. That’s where “destruction is good, it balances the economy” leads, at least in the braindead manner that CCP is implementing it. There are smarter and better-targeted ways to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/108 "2020-12-04T15:16:46Z")
> [@Dethe\_Traiel](#): > > If you believe that, then let’s have a game of monopoly where i hold all the hotels on the board… let’s reset our wealth to the start amount and then start playing - let’s see who wins! Having all hotels is not destroying wealth. ‘income tax £200’ is an example of wealth destruction. If you start with all money in the game and i start with none, and we play on a board that is a £200 fine on every square, both of our wealth approaches zero. ---
**Author:** ![Dethe\_Traiel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dethe_traiel/32/241958_2.png) [@Dethe\_Traiel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dethe_Traiel)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/109 "2020-12-05T03:20:10Z")
So you seriously believe that if someone has a huge stockpile that they will be affected by any wealth destruction? That’s … naieve. And so my example is a much better example - because those with stockpiles will still have it - they will be able to buy up big as ship prices increase, and then sell at a profit. They will have the skills and resources to adapt to any new best income streams… trust me, they will have all the hotels unless your wealth destruction is removing those/targeting those stockpiles. To use your example… income tax of $200 hurts someone with $200 income more than it does for someone with $100000000000 income. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/110 "2020-12-05T03:58:56Z")
> [@Dethe\_Traiel](#): > > And so my example is a much better example - because those with stockpiles will still have it - they will be able to buy up big as ship prices increase, and then sell at a profit. They will have the skills and resources to adapt to any new best income streams… trust me, they will have all the hotels unless your wealth destruction is removing those/targeting those stockpiles. Everything you describe was already happening but at an accelerated rate. In the same way older players are able to leverage safety better than new players. Adapting to change is what people with wealth do whether the economy is shrinking or booming. > [@Dethe\_Traiel](#): > > To use your example… income tax of $200 hurts someone with $200 income more than it does for someone with $100000000000 income. Not in eve for two reasons: First, it’s not a flat fee. Groups have higher expenses. Null blobs especially go through a lot of ships. Second, income is being nerfed too. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Pete](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/simple_pete/32/285038_2.png) [@Simple\_Pete](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Simple_Pete)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/111 "2020-12-05T20:49:40Z")
Just a short analysis. The price drops have costs producers doing PI on 5 planets about $100M a month in income. The impact is higher for HS producers than other areas of space due to double gantry taxes and less productive planets. ---
**Author:** ![Yodik](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yodik/32/377822_2.png) [@Yodik](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yodik)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/112 "2020-12-12T19:28:07Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > Who cares how much PI sells for? I am keeping everything I produce so that I can someday make my Palatine Keepstar. how its going? ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 7:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/113 "2020-12-13T07:58:49Z")
> [@Yodik](#): > > how its going? Good question, let me look at Jita…still down. Robotics are at ~62,000/unit. And looking across other PI goods, most are down that I could see. ---
**Author:** ![Lis\_Torin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lis_torin/32/204820_2.png) [@Lis\_Torin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lis_Torin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 8:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/114 "2020-12-13T08:33:04Z")
Looking at moon materials… Is there a chance that PI also pushed down by null liquidating assets for ISK? I don’t think that constant decline is just effect of zero demand. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 10:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/115 "2020-12-13T10:28:54Z")
I am guessing it is a perverse outcome of CCP’s scarcity idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Lis\_Torin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lis_torin/32/204820_2.png) [@Lis\_Torin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lis_Torin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 10:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/116 "2020-12-13T10:38:03Z")
Only if PI would be impacted in any way by ore changes… ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 10:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/117 "2020-12-13T10:38:47Z")
When you do things in a general equilibrium setting it is very hard to predict all the various outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Lis\_Torin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lis_torin/32/204820_2.png) [@Lis\_Torin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lis_Torin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 10:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/118 "2020-12-13T10:43:23Z")
claiming that eve economy at any point hit “equilibrium” is joke. Pro tip. No one forces you to play. You might not like the current changes. But rage trolling won’t give you any benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 10:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/119 "2020-12-13T10:50:34Z")
Not an outcome of the faucets-open policy before? Look, I know better than to fight number games with your good self, but given that PI grows on trees, is this not the expected outcome if theres no method of realistically preventing PI farming to the maximum level possible at all times? ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 10:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/120 "2020-12-13T10:55:27Z")
> [@Lis\_Torin](#): > > claiming that eve economy at any point hit “equilibrium” is joke. > > Pro tip. No one forces you to play. You might not like the current changes. But rage trolling won’t give you any benefit. The point is that changing some portion of the economy will have effects on other parts of the economy that you do not anticipate. And who is rage trolling? Does my post look like a rage troll? Damn some people are really dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 10:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/121 "2020-12-13T10:57:11Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Look, I know better than to fight number games with your good self, but given that PI grows on trees, is this not the expected outcome if theres no method of realistically preventing PI farming to the maximum level possible at all times? But why now? Your explanation should have happened long, long ago. But it didn’t. Something change. CCP has embarked on a goal of making all EVE players poorer. That kind of thing will produce results nobody can anticipate. And of course, the rich players will be the best able to deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![JayGatsby](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jaygatsby/32/392992_2.png) [@JayGatsby](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JayGatsby)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 11:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/122 "2020-12-13T11:08:52Z")
So the 300 Mil i get out of PI every month with minimal effort and turn into T2 stuff are not worth it anymore? Guess i have to tell my customers then. ---
**Author:** ![JayGatsby](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jaygatsby/32/392992_2.png) [@JayGatsby](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/JayGatsby)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 11:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/123 "2020-12-13T11:11:21Z")
There was and is still to much money in the game that comes to a big degree from people not even playing the game. AFK Mining, AFK Ratting etc. It mostly makes those poorer who not play the game which is working as intended ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/124 "2020-12-13T11:48:34Z")
Well, I got no firepower in an economics fight, my gameplay isnt dependent on requiring x amount income, and I appreciate the point But What caused the slump in August that has trended to present in the Jita price? Honest question, as Im trying to understand EvEonomics by studying this commodity and your and others views on this. ---
**Author:** ![Lis\_Torin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lis_torin/32/204820_2.png) [@Lis\_Torin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lis_Torin)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 12:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430/125 "2020-12-13T12:53:38Z")
> **[A4E - Planetary Commodities - Category Index](https://www.adam4eve.eu/price_chart.php?catID=43)** PI is on decline since second half of 2017. October 2017 was introduction of new moon mining. After initial rush and spike in prices (due to production of refineries) we are in more or less constant decline. March 2020 where [Economic Outlook](https://www.eveonline.com/article/q80qky/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook) was released, with changes to moon mining (no standard ores) and broker relations (tax changes). Actually was spike in PI prices. My take on how minerals changes aren’t affecting PI prices so directly as other suggest. Massive dive in October 2020 are quantum cores. No need future explanation… Structures are biggest demand driver for PI. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pi-market-is-dead/281430.md?page=7)