# Planting a seed of destruction leads to TTT Destroyed **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** high-sec, pvp\ **Created:** [June 24, 2023, 10:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540 "2023-06-24T10:47:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 6:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/41 "2023-06-28T06:04:44Z")
As said: his takes are terrible. ---
**Author:** ![God\_Emperor\_Kane](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/god_emperor_kane/32/399336_2.png) [@God\_Emperor\_Kane](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/God_Emperor_Kane)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 9:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/42 "2023-06-28T09:17:32Z")
I still don’t know or understand what he considers an exploit but I also don’t really care since CCP would have expressed it as one. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 10:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/43 "2023-06-28T10:10:38Z")
He tried to do the “anything CCP didn’t design on purpose is (thus) an exploit”. Given how at least half of all the stuff in the game is, or started as and then expanded on, emergent gameplay it’s a hilariously dumb take. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 11:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/44 "2023-06-28T11:05:56Z")
Speaking as a hauler, not having an option other than explode would make playing the game purposeless. ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 11:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/45 "2023-06-28T11:10:52Z")
We (Frostpacker) are feeling so much negative vibes here on this thread. ---
**Author:** ![F3ND1MUS](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/f3nd1mus/32/377706_2.png) [@F3ND1MUS](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/F3ND1MUS)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/46 "2023-06-28T13:12:52Z")
You didn’t feel the disney vibes, Sing youre welcome it helps ---
**Author:** ![Distaine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/distaine/32/502653_2.png) [@Distaine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Distaine)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 2:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/47 "2023-06-28T14:15:14Z")
Im simply saying, CCP didnt sit down and create the MWD trick. They created MWDs and they created warp mechanics (and didnt think about the server being limited to 1 second ticks). In that discussion, that had no intent or even knowledge that we were going to use the two in combination to avoid combat with the “trick”. Later on, they saw how it was being used and decided this unintended “trick” was an acceptable exploit of the game mechanics. Im also saying they allowed this “trick” because it was being exploited by carebears. If it was a “TRICK” used in pvp to cause combat and not avoid it… it would have been removed after threats of ban for its use. ---
**Author:** ![Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gadget_helmsdottir/32/374037_2.png) [@Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gadget_Helmsdottir)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/48 "2023-06-28T16:50:03Z")
/snerk –Gadget snerks ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/49 "2023-06-28T18:03:49Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Speaking as a hauler, not having an option other than explode would make playing the game purposeless. You _already_ don’t have an option other than explode as a hauler. When targeting haulers specifically, players can use specialized ships/setups to ensure that you won’t get away. Your _viable_ forms of counter-play don’t include the cloak/MWD mechanic, but rather proper scouting, self-webifying, combat escorts, and/or using covert ops-capable ships. The problem is when the game extends the use of the cloak/MWD mechanic to every other ship type, such as heavily-plated 500,000 EHP battleships and Orcas, giving them the option to effectively opt-out of any potential engagement without needing to use scouts or any other form of precaution. It amounts to giving a PvP toggle to combat-capable ships, with the only ways of countering it either being really exploitative in themselves (e.g. using fighters on gates), or encouraging players to use overwhelming, unbeatable odds to attack their enemies (which is really unhealthy for the game). At the very least, a compromise where relatively unarmed ships like haulers and mining barges have access to this mechanic, but conventional combat ships do not, would be reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/50 "2023-06-28T20:07:09Z")
If you weren’t alone and/or used a fast ship you’d be able to decloak them. ---
**Author:** ![F3ND1MUS](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/f3nd1mus/32/377706_2.png) [@F3ND1MUS](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/F3ND1MUS)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/51 "2023-06-28T20:50:15Z")
My favorite is landing on the smart bombing battleships with instant warp ships think they can warp through but end up getting destroyed ---
**Author:** ![F3ND1MUS](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/f3nd1mus/32/377706_2.png) [@F3ND1MUS](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/F3ND1MUS)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2023, 8:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/52 "2023-06-28T20:52:14Z")
I had a guy decloke me in my exploration ship when I moved off the gate and then I cloaked again and warped off ---
**Author:** ![Phaade](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phaade/32/390475_2.png) [@Phaade](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phaade)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 2:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/53 "2023-06-29T02:07:50Z")
Are you trying to suggest making solo in anything larger than a cruiser even harder? Not everyone has alts. This game does NOT need to make pvp, or any other activity in it, to be more difficult to do solo. A scout almost completely negates the need to use this trick by the way. And you’re supposed to be the advocate of the little guy versus the giants ---
**Author:** ![F3ND1MUS](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/f3nd1mus/32/377706_2.png) [@F3ND1MUS](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/F3ND1MUS)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 2:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/54 "2023-06-29T02:12:41Z")
Some people dont know how to self scout or are lazy? Idk ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 4:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/55 "2023-06-29T04:24:12Z")
> [@Phaade](#): > > Are you trying to suggest making solo in anything larger than a cruiser even harder? The people using this mechanic aren’t the ones who are looking for PvP. As groups are a natural counter to the mechanic (whether by virtue of covering the entire gate or having specialized tacklers on call), cloak/MWD works perfectly _only_ against either very small groups or solo players. If someone piloting a combat ship is using this trick to escape a confrontation with a solo player, they’re very obviously _not_ looking for a fight, so your entire chain of logic here is very much off. I can attest to the fact that not a single target I’ve ever taken down that had this combination of modules fitted ever proactively engaged me, even when I was under-shipped and/or outnumbered. The most egregious example I have is from a few weeks ago, when I scouted a group of four players in battleships and a command ship, went out to intercept them, and they _all_ used the trick to run away instead of taking the fight. > [@Phaade](#): > > Not everyone has alts. This game does NOT need to make pvp, or any other activity in it, to be more difficult to do solo. I can make the same exact argument for the other side. Not _everyone_ has alts to dedicate to specialized anti-cloaking tackle or to cover the gate emergence perimeter with ships and drones to prevent cloaking. To support the cloak/MWD mechanic’s existence is to support an environment in which N+1 is the recommended solution to every tactical challenge. Instead of encouraging sportsmanlike behavior and more equitable encounters, it’s saying “just bring as many people as you can, then you’ll get the kill.” ---
**Author:** ![F3ND1MUS](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/f3nd1mus/32/377706_2.png) [@F3ND1MUS](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/F3ND1MUS)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 5:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/56 "2023-06-29T05:08:30Z")
Fantastic thread. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 9:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/57 "2023-06-29T09:56:37Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > So you’re saying that just because I’m a PvPer, I’m not allowed to argue in favor of ethical gameplay? You guys are trying to make this half-assed argument that I’m not entitled to this position because I myself am “exploiting” somehow, but none of you have provided any actual examples as to _how._ > > I go out and solo-hunt war targets and suspects. Well, yes…in the truest sense of the word, you are ‘exploiting’ the wardec system and using it as a means to highsec gank without Concord consequence. You’d never have solo ganked that Paladin the other day in a 0.9 system without that wardec. Also, your targets will mostly be doctrine ships, whereas you can just undock in whatever you know to be more powerful and longer range and take free pot shots at them anywhere. I doubt that is as difficult as you make out…once one has the skills for Kronos and other relevant ships. Of course, it is quite arguable that the hiring of mercenaries is ‘intended’ roleplay and not an exploit in the technical sense. Never the less, in the true ethical sense of the word you _are_ ‘exploiting’ the ally system. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > I _don’t_ roll around with a group of 40 heavy battleships…and shoot abandoned stations Who don’t change ‘allegiance’ every 5 minutes depending on which way the ISK wind is blowing. And abandoned stations don’t spring 22 Ravens on one as I encountered recently, or a fleet of Catalysts, which I also encountered recently. For an endeavour that according to you only involves ‘abandoned stations’, I have 23 Battleships, 2 Combat Battlecruisers, 3 Command ships, 10 destroyers, 1 Freighter, 8 Frigates, 11 Heavy Assault Cruisers, 1 Heavy Fighter, 54 Light Fighters, 1 Logistics, 7 Marauders, 2 Strategic Cruisers, and 6 Support Fighters on my kills list. In fact _over 1/3_ of all my killboard records consists of stuff I have encountered whilst shooting ‘abandoned stations’…lol. ---
**Author:** ![Phaade](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phaade/32/390475_2.png) [@Phaade](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phaade)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 4:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/58 "2023-06-29T16:09:36Z")
I stated anything solo, not just pvp. Everything in eve is exponentially more difficult to do solo. To the extent that most people will only take the n+1 or not at all. That’s my point. And what fight was avoided by the example cited? It would be easy to make the case that had they taken the fight, a rapier would have shown up to drop HAW dreads, or 15 legions, happens all the time. Would it be better for the game of the mechanic didn’t exist, so a battleship could almost never escape even a small camp? Would it encourage more people to participate in activities outside hisec if they are very likely to die en route? Doubtful. Besides, then you have atrocious lock speeds. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/59 "2023-06-29T19:53:46Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > Of course, it is quite arguable that the hiring of mercenaries is ‘intended’ roleplay and not an exploit in the technical sense. Never the less, in the true ethical sense of the word you _are_ ‘exploiting’ the ally system. You’re just arguing semantics now. You’re conflating two entirely separate meanings of the term “exploit” (one being to utilize something, like a resource or an opportunity, and the other being a synonym for cheating). The ally system was _specifically_ created and programmed to work the way it does, whereas the MWD/cloak trick _wasn’t._ A CCP developer didn’t sit down in 2003 and ponder “hm, how do we make it so that players can always warp away their ship in complete safety from a gate?” and then another developer responded “well, what if we create a module that makes your ship entirely invisible, and also a module that gives ships a giant speed boost? that way ships can accelerate to warp velocity while invisible, and then warp instantly once the invisibility is dropped!” I’m an exploiter because I’m making use of an intended feature? I don’t know why you’d try to make such an asinine argument. It’s on the same level as quietly saying “losersayswhat,” and then yelling about how you won the debate because I just admitted that I lost. _Yikes._ > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > In fact _over 1/3_ of all my killboard records consists of stuff I have encountered whilst shooting ‘abandoned stations’…lol. You seem to have no cognizance as to how _sad_ that actually sounds. No, don’t take my word for it. Go ask some people, maybe run a poll. > [@Phaade](#): > > Would it be better for the game of the mechanic didn’t exist, so a battleship could almost never escape even a small camp? A battleship wouldn’t escape from any camp that has enough participants to field a specialized de-cloaker anyway. Once again, the two primary arguments (that the trick is used to avoid engagements with solo players or _very_ small groups, and that players who use the trick are players who aren’t looking for PvP under _any_ circumstances but rather simply want to perform safe travel and transportation) are going completely unaddressed. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 10:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540/60 "2023-06-29T22:19:42Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > You’re just arguing semantics now. Nonsense. You’re the one semantically playing around with ‘intended’ and with other words and definitions. Somehow you alone psychically and retrospectively know exactly what the ‘intent’ was of developers in 2003. It is just plain absurd to argue that something that has been part of the game for 20 years is not ‘intended’. At any point in all that time, CCP could have ‘fixed’ this alleged issue…yet they have not. One could make the same argument for people being able to insta warp or insta dock using bookmarks…which clearly over-rides the ‘intended’ docking mechanism yet people have made use of it for years. Neither do you know for certain that any developer ever sat down and said ’ lets make it so that someone can make an entire career out of abusing the wardec ally system '. As with the other things, it is a consequence of other mechanics and it is more likely that developer stance has been ’ meh…lets just leave that as it is '. There’s all sorts of shenanigans that go on with holding corps and corp swaps that were probably never ‘intended’ but which have evolved over time and CCP have just left things as they are. Any game as complex as Eve is naturally going to have emergent gameplay that was not specifically ‘intended’. A classic example is gate camps, which were likely ‘intended’…until players blocked one of the main trade routes and CCPs own developers ended up having to log in to fight them off. So much for ‘intended’…lol. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > You seem to have no cognizance as to how _sad_ that actually sounds. You have a greater lack of cognizance of how it totally negates your ‘abandoned stations’ claim and you are thus just changing the subject. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/planting-a-seed-of-destruction-leads-to-ttt-destroyed/410540.md?page=4)