# Players as Content and the Victim Mindset **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** pvp\ **Created:** [August 11, 2022, 5:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239 "2022-08-11T05:29:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ferdiad\_Silver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ferdiad_silver/32/331325_2.png) [@Ferdiad\_Silver](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ferdiad_Silver)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 1:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/122 "2022-08-13T01:29:07Z")
> [@Mr\_Epeen](#): > > EVE. Boring AF to watch and unsellable to potential capsuleers Oh yeah the reality is very different to any version of “This is EVE”. However Rooks and Kings is also a version of eve reality that sells what the game can be with a little imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Geminus\_Duolphus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/geminus_duolphus/32/329938_2.png) [@Geminus\_Duolphus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Geminus_Duolphus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 1:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/123 "2022-08-13T01:30:44Z")
I never got full loot. The loot fairy never wants me to have the hood modules. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 1:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/124 "2022-08-13T01:31:32Z")
> [@Geminus\_Duolphus](#): > > I never got full loot. The loot fairy never wants me to have the hood modules. yeah its more like 30% 😛 but full loot pvp means that you drop things and other players can have it ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 2:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/125 "2022-08-13T02:05:14Z")
This is a spot on analysis. People who whine to CCP to nerf this or buff that, in order for themselves to have a “better” game (for themselves) are only displaying massive entitlement. ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 2:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/126 "2022-08-13T02:10:21Z")
Think past the paperclip, think more about the message and remember that EveOnline PVP is player driven and to derive active content requires Capsuleers to communicate via player created channels. The more a new Capsuleer asks for help the faster they too can become knowledgeable at what can be at their disposal. through fleets, contracts, outside game api details etc. Sharing knowledge is a huge part of New Eden even if that knowledge is sometimes not always accepted and if that also becomes a clutter then the option to freely jump through systems is totally up to the Capsuleer in possibly becoming the content on the other side of that Stargate. /_I am that new Capsuleer, my mindset is still stuck in Highsec._ ---
**Author:** ![Maxine\_Macks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/maxine_macks/32/330024_2.png) [@Maxine\_Macks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Maxine_Macks)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 4:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/127 "2022-08-13T04:36:45Z")
> [@Shipwreck\_Jones](#): > > those who want a “Westworld-style” game, where players can pretend that they’re overcoming adversity in a dangerous world, when in reality, they can’t lose and are in no danger. Depends how you define “lose” and “danger” in a video game context. There is no danger in EVE or in any video game and the loss is only what the player agrees upon by downloading and spending from earned wage. So the Westworld and theme park comebacks are merely crutches for lack of argument from the other side, the side where they leave the game. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 6:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/128 "2022-08-13T06:12:14Z")
> [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](#): > > Why point the finger when we are the content? Because CCP is the developer of the content. Content is not only players. In MMOs and even offline games expansions is what are keeping the players in the game. If you play the same thing over and over, you explore everything eventually. You need something new. CCP is not doing all they can to keep players in the game. They have always been doing some other games on the side, experimenting with something that eventually went down. This EVE game is their best thing, and they dont want to fully commit to it. Even in 2009 people complained that CCP is half-assing everything in EVE. Planetary interaction, incarna, etc, in that time they developed many other games that were in market for 3 years like Dust 514, or never seen release like WoD. Their business model is flawed. We are the victims of it. When you pay $20 for sub, as you can see what they always did with the money, you essentially see these money gone and nothing in EVE for it, its like they throw money into the oven. You then stop giving them $20. EVE is making less and less money, and it shows in the PA financial reports. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 6:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/129 "2022-08-13T06:50:30Z")
Despite all the stupid thrown at me for what I said, I can’t get away from the simple fact that the game was designed as the players being the main content and that this is known by almost all the players. And the example of the map as one of the items proving it is just an example of that design and nothing more than that. Let me now see a twenty page analysis of what a twit I am for stating that! 🍿 ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 7:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/130 "2022-08-13T07:55:06Z")
Dear Nana Skalski As a Capsuleer of Eve Online I wish to reply with something positive even though it might sound like an attack on the gameplay of others. Sandbox mmorpg is what we find inside New Eden. We choose to be in our own environment that we create with the tools given to us were we set ourself around others with simular goals. This type of gameplay is never stale, it is the Capsuleer’s ability to maintain their own verson of that sandbox that makes New Eden feel fresh. Small changes in where a Pilot roams can do this for pvp players as the same as pve players. When it looks to become stale, create some spanner to throw into the peace and harmory of your New Eden sandbox. I like you as a Capsuleer and I don’t want to burn any future bridges with anyone but when i search for the following answer; > What is a sandbox mmorpg? > > A sandbox is **a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will**. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks Where the other games that are labeled as MMORPG’s they hold a progression system as stated from google. Knowing this tell us the difference and also explains to us why Eve Online should never be seen as being stale. With the future change skill tree, this is sounding alot like what can be mentioned in a MMORPG with a progression system. This alone is a bad direction and I strongly feel that the sand from this sandbox will leak more Capsuleers whom are wanting that progression style mmorpg in New Eden. > Even in 2009 people complained that CCP is half-assing everything in EVE When also searching google for that exact term phase; Resulting in a long debate many years ago asking a thread titled; “Factional Warfare : Doomed from the beginning? Am I wasting my time?” We still have long term pilots here still doing Faction Warfare of old and this shows that that part is also not stale. In closing other can reply better than myself. Kind Regards Iceacid Frostpacker ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 8:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/131 "2022-08-13T08:06:18Z")
I think you’re giving him too much credit, but I won’t fault you for giving someone the benefit of the doubt. So, no damage to your forum credibility as far as I’m concerned. As for calling him out in third person, well… idk. On one hand, I strongly suspect him of arguing in bad faith, and I want to fight against that. And, by breaking down what he’s doing, I hope to undermine the efficacy of his bad faith arguments, and to help others to be able to better spot what he’s doing in the future. On the other hand, I’m not trying to hurt the feelings of, or make the forums a hostile and unwelcoming place to, anyone who is not a bad actor. Like, I have no sympathy for trolls and people who intentionally argue in bad faith, but I do for everyone else. And, that’s the thing with Drac -I don’t know exactly what he is. I mean, I am quite confident that he is arguing in bad faith, but that doesn’t mean that he’s doing it consciously. I mean, that’s the thing about fallacies -some people will intentionally use arguments that they know are BS, while others will use them because they actually believe them. The problem, however, is that it can sometimes be really difficult to tell which is which. So, what is the best way to proceed when you’re dealing with someone who is using bad faith arguments, but who may or may not be a bad actor? Well, I thought I knew the answer, especially since I’ve tried talking to him before and gotten nowhere (i.e. about his tone policing). But the fact that someone I might maybe have a pinch of respect for is saying something about it is enough reason to give me pause. So, I won’t say that I was right or wrong to do what I did, but I will think about it. Of course, if you have anything to add, by all means. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 8:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/132 "2022-08-13T08:25:58Z")
I consider Triglavian invasions as the best what could have been thrown into the game, despite few flaws that resulted in creation of unchangable pochven and unchangable result. This should have been continuing without stop! Systems changing hands, changing security level. Thats where the emergent gameplay is, and sandbox that is full of sand. That is where meaning is. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 10:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/133 "2022-08-13T10:00:09Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > I consider Triglavian invasions as the best what could have been thrown into the game, I fondly remember how, in September 2019, the good Triglavians invaded the system of Couster - a rookie starter system. Let’s just say there was _some_ justification for the _Victim Mindset_ on that day, with a big pile of wrecked ships on the undock and many a bewildered and groggy rookie floating around in a pod. "_I believe in Triglavians. Triglavians have made my fortune"._ (Opening scene from Il Space Padrino, YC121) ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/5/f/85ff8ceedf393172652d17eadf064ba6dc57cbd9.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 11:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/134 "2022-08-13T11:13:28Z")
> [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](#): > > We choose to be in our own environment that we create with the tools given to us were we set ourself around others with simular goals. This type of gameplay is never stale, it is the Capsuleer’s ability to maintain their own verson of that sandbox that makes New Eden feel fresh. The problem is that as other people have said, many times in many ways, CCP half-assed the sandbox. Your own definition shows it: > [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](#): > > **allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will**. Players in EVE have very little ability to “change the virtual world”. There’s a limited amount of things you can build or do to change the landscape. And the combat style of interaction is very restricted by EVE game design to primarily only finding fights you can easily and safely win. There is no player mission-creation system. There is no way to set goals, mission and achievement levels for your corp. There are no bounty contracts, escort contracts, defense contracts. There’s no rational way to set up a “white knight” or “space police” career in-game. Piracy pays for itself, policing doesn’t. There’s no player-made stargates or wormholes. There’s no player ranking systems. All these things can be done by role-playing or third-party tools or with some other workaround but **they aren’t part of the game**. CCP has thrown away multi-millions of EVE money on proving to the world they got lucky once with one group of developers and one idea and can’t develop anything else. If they had spent even a fifth of that money on improving EVE, we would indeed have a game that the players keep from being stale. EVE isn’t a sandbox game - it’s half a truckload of sand dumped in an empty field and left to become dust in the wind. ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 11:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/135 "2022-08-13T11:16:49Z")
Discussion on the paperclip, I heard that CCP are looking for ways to remove the need to alt tab out of the game to look up intel such as simular to Dotlan or the likes of such api generated intel. The paperclip was not my doing, it was a mere continuation of Pilot [Ferdiad Silver](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ferdiad_Silver) comment and added a visual aid to those who rather Picture details that sums up everything about the paperclip. ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 11:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/136 "2022-08-13T11:59:29Z")
Firstly the reason why I have broken up the reply as there are various subjects that I find key to show example and reasoning. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Your own definition shows it: I agree there is a situation where my reply was lacking with correct context. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > There is no player mission-creation system. This is where I feel there is Capsuleer created content that can act and reward as a agent mission would. Corps could do without the need for CCP to code new things, I can name a few fun events off the top of my head. Jetcan Soccer Pod Races Bootlegging Trash and Treasure Hunt Hide and Seek Burn Jita 2.0 or 3.0?? Eve Online is a social game and really there are far too many Alliances in my books. We should be discussing merging and doing the fun stuff together. (not you and I but in the whole Faction Warfare where we as a community decide who out of the main 4 that form a bond to never feel alone and noone to interact with who is not out to shoot and loot you. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > There is no way to set goals, mission and achievement levels for your corp. Corps have and can issue titles to their members, theycan pay out dividens to share holders or run events to pass loot to the pilots who earned it for what ever reason. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Piracy pays for itself, policing doesn’t Demand for bounty system grows each day it is not rebooted is all I can reply with on that, but should really be on it’s own thread. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > There’s no player-made stargates or wormholes. Nulsec and wormholes change hands and I think the basic system is to build and Destroy within the limits of the sandbox using the tools we have. Wanting anything more than this is not Eve Online. I am in highsec but that is my vision of what the basic gameplay of Eve Online. (Build and Destroy) > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > There’s no player ranking systems. This again why do we need CCP to control & issue some ranking system to it’s Capsuleers? Why can’t the top Alliances hold some ranking like what we can see in Tama? We can ask what does a ranking ladder mean to us? Space cred it player issued not CCP issued. _Facilitate, build and destroy while roleplaying is all I am willing to apply while I am in character,_ I can not decide what might suit my game is good enough for anyone elses. I am in New Eden to build and Destroy. That is my goal. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 1:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/137 "2022-08-13T13:46:55Z")
Without the mechanisms though, no one else will accept the rules you set up for events, contracts etc. We have laws for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![Xuixien](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuixien/32/416896_2.png) [@Xuixien](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuixien)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 2:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/138 "2022-08-13T14:20:49Z")
Drac is just your typical narcissist getting his NSupply on the forums. Nothing more, nothing less. He literally argued with me that burning towards another player was considered “aggressing”, since it was “an act of aggression”, even though the player base is pretty unanimous in what “aggressing” means (aka, performing an action that results in a Weapons Timer). ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/b/f/1/bf173d9e908c8b0be41ca69c5d30043ffa05e975.png) I’ve actually stopped reading anything he posts on the forums. > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > As far as higher roads go, that option isn’t really necessary due to the fringe viewpoints expressed by the person in question (e.g. their bigotry). To be fair the only “bigotry” from Drac anyone has been able to show me was when he told another person **not** to use “hOmOpHoBiC sLuRs” on the forums, as that would result in their posts being removed. You can say a lot of negative things about Drac, but I don’t think “bigot” is one of them - unless of course by “bigot” you mean the literal definition: ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/7/a/87a3ddc9e08fedc052c21b6e608a5dcf35cf829b.png) > [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > Because CCP is the developer of the content. Content is not only players. > > In MMOs and even offline games expansions is what are keeping the players in the game. If you play the same thing over and over, you explore everything eventually. You need something new. > > CCP is not doing all they can to keep players in the game. They have always been doing some other games on the side, experimenting with something that eventually went down. This EVE game is their best thing, and they dont want to fully commit to it. Even in 2009 people complained that CCP is half-assing everything in EVE. Planetary interaction, incarna, etc, in that time they developed many other games that were in market for 3 years like Dust 514, or never seen release like WoD. > > Their business model is flawed. We are the victims of it. When you pay $20 for sub, as you can see what they always did with the money, you essentially see these money gone and nothing in EVE for it, its like they throw money into the oven. You then stop giving them $20. > > EVE is making less and less money, and it shows in the PA financial reports. This rings true (not just the part about CCP throwing money into failed projects). Players are content - but if I want to kick over someone’s sandcastle, there has to be sandcastles in the game. Which means there has to be sand, too. I think maybe a better description for the “stuff” in EVE would be “substrate”. The _players_ are the _content_, but all the stuff - the ships, the mechanics, etc - are the “substrate”. CCP has been failing to keep the substrate healthy and rich. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/139 "2022-08-13T14:30:25Z")
An excellent example of a lack of understanding of nuance. Burning towards someone is showing aggression. There is nuance involved… Still thanks for the bigot comment, and the literal definition cannot be applied to me simply because I am very tolerant towards people on this forum, even those that are insulting and nasty, I keep trying to exchange with them no matter the shite that gets thrown at me. 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Ursula\_Anders](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ursula_anders/32/331878_2.png) [@Ursula\_Anders](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ursula_Anders)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 3:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/140 "2022-08-13T15:11:13Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > Still thanks for the bigot comment, and the literal definition cannot be applied to me simply because I am very tolerant towards people on this forum, even those that are insulting and nasty Just because someone says something on you doesn’t mean it’s even remotely close to being true. I always love to read and smirk at posts that pretend to tell a person’s character while coming from someone who couldn’t possibly have any clue. It says more about them than about you. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2022, 5:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239/141 "2022-08-13T17:23:54Z")
The irony of who it was coming from was also not lost. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239.md?page=6) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/players-as-content-and-the-victim-mindset/373239.md?page=8)