# Plead with CCP to allow Capsuleers use Vanguard warclone tech directly (and vice versa) **URL:** \ **Category:** Assembly Hall\ **Tags:** game-mechanics\ **Created:** [October 1, 2023, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/plead-with-ccp-to-allow-capsuleers-use-vanguard-warclone-tech-directly-and-vice-versa/422480 "2023-10-01T17:00:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elinore\_en\_Divalone](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elinore_en_divalone/32/507815_2.png) [@Elinore\_en\_Divalone](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elinore_en_Divalone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2023, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/plead-with-ccp-to-allow-capsuleers-use-vanguard-warclone-tech-directly-and-vice-versa/422480/1 "2023-10-01T17:00:31Z")
> **TL;DR / Suggestion:** let CSM negotiate with CCP a way (a lore excuse for example 🙂 ) so the requirement of creating dedicated EVE Vanguard character will not be necessary in the future when EVE Vanguard, hopefully, will be officially released as part of EVE Online here to stay with us finally Forever. As most of you probably have heard, EVE Vanguard, an EVE Online upcoming _FPS module_ in active development is scheduled for mass test in December. Aka _EVE OPS: First Strike_ To take part in it, one will be required to create dedicated EVE Vanguard character. As of now it will be effectively a fourth special character on omega account. EVE Vanguard will be a separate executable launched from the same launcher EVE Online is. Vanguard character can be played simultaneously along other EVE Online characters on the same account. **Disclaimer:** Below is a proposition of just one of possible angles of approach to convince CCP. I bet you would come up with more 🙂 ### Here goes… CCP defended their decision for separate character for EVE Vanguard by pointing out vanguards are different breed of clones. They ere the grunts and Capsuleers are The Elite. I don’t wan’t to argue that 🙂 Let’s take a few steps back and look from broader perspective and find a way to convince CCP it is viable to have to _birbs_ with one stone. First of all we, as capsuleers are infomorphs - a digitalized consciousness that operates using the biological tissues of cloned body brain. We need that body (err. brain) to _exists_. And that body is specially designed to accommodate that with burn scanner in the pod to ensure safe transfer of infomorph upon present clone death to another clone …or clone jump. Vanguards are infomorphs too. They too do clone jumps …by the thousands. And here is a loophole in CCP defense we might try to use in Capsuleers favor 🙂 _(and Vanguards’ too 🙂 )_ ### Enter new _Neural Enhancement Skills_ - Infomorph Warclone Interfacing - Infomorph Capsuleer Interfacing To use warclone technology Capsuleers must buy _Infomorph Warclone Interfacing Skillbook_, inject it and train at least to _Level I_ To use capsuleer technology Vanguards must buy _Infomorph Capsuleer Interfacing Skillbook_, inject it and train at least to _Level I_ Every fresh Capsuleer would start with _Infomorph Capsuleer Interfacing Skill V_ trained and no _Infomorph Warclone Interfacing Skill_ injected ![Neural_Enhancement_Skills_New_Capsuleer](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/0/1/f/01fbdbb757853b9a402a529f88590511621ce02d.png) _(times for training new skill are a placeholder, I just pasted time from Elite Infomorph Psychology)_ All Capsuleer Skills would need to be updated (all that we know and train as of now) to require this skill trained to certain level. This would also allow for easier mangement of skill gateing for alpha accounts. Every fresh Vanguard would start with _Infomorph Warclone Interfacing Skill V_ and no _Infomorph Capsuleer Interfacing Skill_ injected ![Neural_Enhancement_Skills_New_Vanguard](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/b/a/f/baf02caae522812f5833022ddafff54a80848fd3.png) _(times for training new skill are a placeholder, I just pasted time from Elite Infomorph Psychology)_ All Vanguard Skills (all that we don’t know yet) require this skill trained to certain level. This would allow for one _Skill tree_ and two different starting points in New Eden and equal opportunities for both Capsuleers and Vanguards to achieve if they choose so. ### How could that work? Since becoming an infommorph capable of using capsuleer technology or warclone technology requires two very different training approaches from the start, it is obvious one trainig can’t be enough to use both. Enter _infomorph mode_. So if a capsuleer would like to taste thrills of fighting _podless_ she would need to purchase _Infomorph Warclone Interfacing Skillbook_ and train to at least _Level I_. I have no idea what warclone skills would that unlock honestly 🙂 Maybe a basic ability to use a warclone blanks and walk. Unarmed? 😉 Then further training to catch up with fresh vanguard skill level. This would be _warclone mode_. Same for vanguards. If they want to fly spaceships in a pod, they would need to purchase _Infomorph Capsuleer Interfacing Skillbook_ and train to at least _Level I_. That would give a basic ability to fly a pod and use a hangar. They could have their trainig queue already set up and populated with skills that would let them catch up to fresh capsuleer pilot level without the need to figure it out by themselves. This would be _capsuleer mode_. The one we are now in. Infomorph jumps from _warclone mode_ to _capsuleer mode_ would require cooldowns before jumping back to _warclone mode_ or to another capsuleer clone in different station. Just like regular clone jumps do. When in _warclone mode_ there is no cooldowns between jumps from warclone blank to warclone blank upon death (no matter where that new blank is located). That’s the biggest difference between two technologies. It’s like capsuleer _jump clones_ and _medical clones_ rolled into one without a cooldown. But maybe capsuleers trained into vanguards would require some cooldowns depending on their _Infomorph Warclone Interfacing Skill_ level? Upon death in a warclone body capsuleer would need to wait few minutes (hours?) to use another one or be back into _capsuleer mode_. And vice versa. Vangurads upon death in a pod would need to wait few minutes (hours?) to use another _medical clone_ or be back into _warclone mode_. Finally the skill queue. I too think (as it was [suggested already](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-vanguard-panel-notes-discussion/421576/58)) that two queues need to be present. One for _capsuleer mode_ and the other for _warclone mode_. As the infomorph can’t be in two modes at once so should the only one of the queues be active for coresponding _infomorph mode_. All the above would certainly require ballancing and polishing obviously… and covered up by New Eden lore 🙂 Sources: [New Eden lore: The Capsuleer](https://universe.eveonline.com/lore/capsuleers) [New Eden lore: The Warclones](https://universe.eveonline.com/lore/warclones) [eve discord → #vg-feedback](https://discord.com/channels/940573867192221696/1154000616109133854) CCP Shortfall of CCP London clarifies [eve discord → #vg-general](https://discord.com/channels/940573867192221696/1154000495527084052) CCP Shortfall as well [FF’23 EVE Vanguard Panel summary by community member](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-vanguard-panel-notes-discussion/421576) - non binding declarations and discussions ofc ---
**Author:** ![Nicen\_Jehr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicen_jehr/32/388048_2.png) [@Nicen\_Jehr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicen_Jehr)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2023, 6:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/plead-with-ccp-to-allow-capsuleers-use-vanguard-warclone-tech-directly-and-vice-versa/422480/2 "2023-10-01T18:53:50Z")
If there’s no skill training system I definitely want my pilot running and gunning, maybe raiding some T4 PI goods from another EVE player. > [@EVE Vanguard](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-vanguard/421375/1): > > I would like to [request](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-vanguard/421375) letting me infiltrate and steal player ships from structures. If Vanguard _does_ use a skill system I am not interested in the devil’s choice whether to train EVE skills or Vanguard skills on the same toon, and I’m not interested in paying plex for the privilege of training both simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![Elinore\_en\_Divalone](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elinore_en_divalone/32/507815_2.png) [@Elinore\_en\_Divalone](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elinore_en_Divalone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2023, 8:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/plead-with-ccp-to-allow-capsuleers-use-vanguard-warclone-tech-directly-and-vice-versa/422480/3 "2023-10-01T20:43:11Z")
I’ve updated my OP with a disclaimer that this _new skills_ explanation is just one possibility to convince CCP 🙂 I bet there are others 🙂 Maybe even simpler than what I’ve wrote 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gothikia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gothikia/32/387845_2.png) [@Gothikia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gothikia)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/plead-with-ccp-to-allow-capsuleers-use-vanguard-warclone-tech-directly-and-vice-versa/422480/4 "2023-10-01T20:48:04Z")
I fully endorse this and having whatever Vanguard skills there will be show up in our skill tree. Whilst CCP ShortFall has stated multple times to me in Discord that its not really where they’re wanting to go, and its still early days, I genuinely think they’re missing a huge oppertunity here to have a more tight integration. Maybe that’s why they’re not actually going full steam ahead with it given the history CCP has with FPS success. That’s a fair and justified criticism as well as a fair and justified reason for not having a tight integration at the start from a CCP business development / project management perspective. There is likely also technical challenges right now between Vanguard’s backend, which is on AWS afaik, and TQ. Obviously, so early in the game, you don’t want to allow the Vanguard nodes full access to TQ’s backend network on security reasons alone without a pre/post launch security audit. But none of that should have to get in the way of saying, “yeah, lets actually talk about this if you want it so badly”. **What I would plead with CCP on at this moment in time is to not create any hard barriers between what Vanguard will launch as and us actually coming out of the capsule.** The meat of the New Eden universe is EVE Online. Isolating yourself away from that and being shy from having tight integrations will just end up with another Dust 2, 3 or 5 years down the line. _You want to get capsuleers invested._ This is how you do it. So lets gauge interest, build support and start having a conversation of what _we_ want. If you end up delivering something that the majority of folks don’t actually want, then you’re wasting time, effort and money. ---
**Author:** ![Lesican](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lesican/32/448285_2.png) [@Lesican](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lesican)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 1:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/plead-with-ccp-to-allow-capsuleers-use-vanguard-warclone-tech-directly-and-vice-versa/422480/5 "2023-10-02T01:10:33Z")
Hot take I want to use my Eve character with my alliance logo in Vanguard even if I am logged in to TQ at the same time. OP used to many words and i got bored reading but I assume he does too ---
**Author:** ![Elinore\_en\_Divalone](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elinore_en_divalone/32/507815_2.png) [@Elinore\_en\_Divalone](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elinore_en_Divalone)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 5:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/plead-with-ccp-to-allow-capsuleers-use-vanguard-warclone-tech-directly-and-vice-versa/422480/6 "2023-10-02T05:15:12Z")
Moved “suggestion” to the top and added TL;DR in front in OP, that should fix _the boring stuff_ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 11:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/plead-with-ccp-to-allow-capsuleers-use-vanguard-warclone-tech-directly-and-vice-versa/422480/7 "2023-10-02T11:20:28Z")
> [@Gothikia](#): > > Whilst CCP ShortFall has stated multple times to me in Discord that its not really where they’re wanting to go Someone might want to remind shortfall that it doesn’t really matter where they want to go, they have to go where the players are, and having to create a whole new character to play an FPS set within the single universe they operate just isn’t going to be something most people are going to be too happy about I get he wants to stick close to the “lore” but he also needs to understand that gameplay \> lore excuse > [@Gothikia](#): > > Obviously, so early in the game, you don’t want to allow the Vanguard nodes full access to TQ’s backend network on security reasons alone without a pre/post launch security audit. Thing is, you don’t need to, they already have an Oauth system in place, you login with your EVE account and give it access to a character to confirm you own it, bam character name already reserved, you do the reverse for those starting their life in vanguard who might want to transition over to playing EVE, i’m not super bothered by the avatars being different but keeping hold of the name is 100% essential and they could easily create a system to handle name reservations, you wouldn’t need to give vanguard complete access to TQ’s backend you just need access to the character name endpoint and then a way for vanguard to reserve names on TQ should VG players decide to then create a character The security risks there are minimal as you’re not actually giving VG itself free access to anything outside of a specific table used to hold reserved names and giving it read access to a new endpoint that can be used to search for entities by name to check if there will be a conflict later on, SSO handles the rest and if CCP consider their own SSO a security risk thats a different issue lol > [@Lesican](#): > > Hot take I wouldn’t even call this a hot take, i would call this a pretty basic feature that should exist from the start ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 11:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/plead-with-ccp-to-allow-capsuleers-use-vanguard-warclone-tech-directly-and-vice-versa/422480/8 "2023-10-02T11:23:38Z")
I just would like be able to copy the face of my pilot across as leader of Frostpacker and also voted as best looking by all members. ---
**Author:** ![Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/uriel_the_flame/32/490165_2.png) [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Uriel_the_Flame)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 11:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/plead-with-ccp-to-allow-capsuleers-use-vanguard-warclone-tech-directly-and-vice-versa/422480/9 "2023-10-02T11:32:07Z")
> [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](#): > > voted as best looking by all members Though you have to bribe all your alts for that to happen. 🤭 😈 :dealwithitparrot: ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 11:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/plead-with-ccp-to-allow-capsuleers-use-vanguard-warclone-tech-directly-and-vice-versa/422480/10 "2023-12-31T11:32:47Z")
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