# Please balance fleet PvP Battlecruisers **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [January 30, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752 "2019-01-30T00:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/43 "2019-02-06T01:09:37Z")
Any faster and you’ll be breaking the land speed record with the wheels under those goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![elitatwo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elitatwo/32/373473_2.png) [@elitatwo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/elitatwo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 4:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/44 "2019-02-06T04:14:59Z")
So to don’t leave you hanging here because I know fitting ships in EVE is theoreytical physics and not everyone, including me, don’t have a degree in theortical physics from Havard University or CalTech. 6x heavy assault missile launcher II shield command burst I (300x shield extension charge) 50mn cold-gas enduring mwd 2x large f-s9 regolith compact shield extender adaptive invulnerability field II fleeting compact stasis webifier faint coped warp scrambler 3x ballistic control II mark I compact power diagnostic system medium anti-em screen reinforcer 2x medium core defense field extender (tech 1 or 2 is up to your wallet) This fit needs a lot more “compact” modules than any other ship of this class - go figure. If I look at the Brutix or Myrmidon, the Harbinger or Prophecy, I don’t have to make those kinds of compromises at all. On any gun-boat, you can just use the smaller guns but missiles only have one size or the meta launchers which cannot use tech 2 missiles - another go figure. Very interesting to see that the Drake Navy Issue has a similar problem, even with 120 more powergrid and you have to use the same compact shield extenders for the meta mwd and the tech 1 command link, though on the Drake Navy Issue you has enough cpu to fit a damage control with the 3 ballistic controls. So much for the “navy improvement”. ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/45 "2019-02-06T13:51:43Z")
The deciding factor in those fights the first post mentioned wasn’t that the Ferox is OP, it’s that Domi/Nestor fleets are a lousy counter for Ferox fleets if they’re not fielded properly. Sure, they’re versatile and durable, but they lack the range and alpha to deal with dedicated sniper fleets at range. Unless you have someone combat probing the Feroxes to keep your fleet right on top of them, I’d expect a Domi/Nestor fleet to lose to sniper Feroxes (or any other decent sniper fleet actually) pretty consistently. A well-fielded brawler fleet with good tackle or BS-gun sniper fleet can wipe the floor with a Ferox fleet. Admittedly, the former is harder to do in empire space where you lack bubbles, but it’s not a show-stopper. Also…the relative ISK cost of two fleet compositions has absolutely nothing to do with which will, or should, win in a fight. With that out of the way, I will admit that Feroxes are extremely popular at the moment and maybe needs a look at, but your proposed changes for the Ferox are patently ludicrous. It is a shield tanking Caldari battlecruiser, and you want to give it _two_ more low slots than mid slots? No. I’m open to the idea of tweaking/removing the optimal range bonus (RIP sniper Moa) but giving it a cap recharge bonus instead? No. As for your Hurricane changes, there’s a reason why Artillery-centric Minmatar ships aren’t often given projectile damage bonuses: Alpha strike. Sure, their DPS is typically lower, but especially in fleet fights a lower DPS is irrelevant if you can volley your targets off the field easier. -1 ---
**Author:** ![elitatwo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elitatwo/32/373473_2.png) [@elitatwo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/elitatwo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/46 "2019-02-07T00:57:31Z")
As Stitch Kaneland mentioned, the Apocalyse with mega beams would be the counter to Ferox fleets. Large beam lasers have enough alpha at very long ranges to volley them of the field, can be insured and maybe cost a tad more but they also will win every time. If the Harbinger Navy Issue weren’t so ludacris expensive, you would have a nice beam laser doctrine with a similar tank, only slightly less range and they even look intimidating enough. ---
**Author:** ![Raw\_Matters](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/raw_matters/32/462866_2.png) [@Raw\_Matters](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Raw_Matters)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/47 "2019-02-07T22:43:33Z")
> [@elitatwo](#): > > As Stitch Kaneland mentioned, the Apocalyse with mega beams would be the counter to Ferox fleets. So what would keep the Ferox fleet from warping on top of the Apocs and start alphaing those off the fleet as well? You’d trade Feroxes and Apocs 2:1 which is a definite win in the ISK war for the Feroxes. ---
**Author:** ![elitatwo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elitatwo/32/373473_2.png) [@elitatwo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/elitatwo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 11:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/48 "2019-02-07T23:47:21Z")
That is not a problem I have to solve. I don’t even want to be in a 9 bajillion account blobbh in the first place. My pain threshold is reached at 50 people on grid. ---
**Author:** ![elitatwo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elitatwo/32/373473_2.png) [@elitatwo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/elitatwo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/49 "2019-02-07T23:48:38Z")
> [@Raw\_Matters](#): > > So what would keep the Ferox fleet from warping I suggest bubbles or competent tackle. ---
**Author:** ![Stitch\_Kaneland](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stitch_kaneland/32/380745_2.png) [@Stitch\_Kaneland](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Stitch_Kaneland)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/50 "2019-02-08T02:40:16Z")
An FC with a brain. Assuming we’re still talking highsec and boosh dessies are out of the question and bubbles. If you intend to operate at sniping ranges, have your apocs fit with MJD’s. Your enemy would need to get consistent warp-in’s on every MJD attempt. Ferox don’t have MJD, and would be 100km off after the apoc’s MJD (assuming they warped in at 0). So its not like the Ferox fleet would be able to just immediately warp in on the next MJD spot, they’d need to warp to a ping, or burn 50km away. Meanwhile the Apoc’s will be dealing 1.5x more damage than the Ferox will at 100km range. While also having a larger tank. You also forget, Ferox have a huge sig, and you’re bringing them within gleam range (tracking bonused ammo) on a tracking bonused battleship. If those Ferox turn on their MWD, they have a 2.2k sig radius. If they don’t turn on their MWD, then they’re a slow, shield tanked turd, sitting under gleam optimal with things 1.5-2x their EHP. If you really want to win the objective, pop their anchor and then watch all the F1 warriors sit still as they don’t know how to avoid transversal. For fun, the sig radius values i see before links is: Ferox: 389 Apoc: 380 Napoc: 370 They have identical sigs, hell the battleships have a better sig than a Ferox (before and after links). ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 6:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/51 "2019-02-08T06:33:19Z")
> [@Stitch\_Kaneland](#): > > Ferox don’t have MJD Medium Micro Jump Drive says hi. Yes they won’t be typically fitted with them, but it is an option for them. ---
**Author:** ![Stitch\_Kaneland](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stitch_kaneland/32/380745_2.png) [@Stitch\_Kaneland](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Stitch_Kaneland)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/52 "2019-02-08T12:34:13Z")
Not what i meant. I meant the typical fleet Ferox does not have an MJD fitted. I fly battlecruisers and battleships almost exclusively, i’m well aware of what can/cannot fit an MJD. If they switch to MJD only, then they lose a small amount of tank switching from a PDU to an RCU (75k EHP to 73k EHP). It still does not change their sig radius at close range. If you fit them MWD+MJD then you’re losing tank and cap stability (replacing the small cap booster with the MWD, then having to downgrade to meta LSE due to PG). You can do it sure, but You’re losing something by fitting an MJD onto a Ferox no matter how you slice it. To add on to this, while its an albeit small thing, an Apoc has 75m3 drone bandwidth, the ferox has 25. Since this is a sniper fleet, its possible for the apoc’s just field 3 heavy drones and have a mini drone blob for anything that gets close, setup to be hitting the Ferox’s lowest resist. So 3 Ogre II’s x 250 Apocs is going to equal a lot of damage just on its own, combined with gleam tracking and ~530 gun dps. Really, the Apoc fleet could just have a few t1 vigils spread around and bloom ferox sigs when they get close and they’d wipe the floor with them. Or use huginn/loki’s for webs if you’re so inclined. There are plenty of counters to a Ferox being close to an Apoc/Battleship fleet. Battleships counter battlecruisers. People underestimate shield BC sig radius and battleship turret tracking. If people are wanting to discuss the fleet meta in highsec where capitals aren’t a thing, bubbles, bombs and booshes aren’t a thing, i see no reason why people aren’t field proper battleship counters. Cost is a dumb reason, especially if we’re talking T1/navy BS. Do you want to win the engagement, or pinch pennies? bring the counter, stop being cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Raw\_Matters](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/raw_matters/32/462866_2.png) [@Raw\_Matters](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Raw_Matters)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 12:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/53 "2019-02-09T00:15:13Z")
> [@Stitch\_Kaneland](#): > > Your enemy would need to get consistent warp-in’s on every MJD attempt. It would go like this: Feroxes jump on battleships, BS hit MJD. 10s of trading hits, then BS are 100km off. Ferox and BS both can still hit each other. 20s later Feroxes are on top of BS again. MJD is still on a 160s cooldown. MJD is not going to change the outcome of this battle at all. > [@Stitch\_Kaneland](#): > > You also forget, Ferox have a huge sig Sig is just completely irrelevant in big fleet battles. Interceptors to Battleships get one-shot all alike if just enough ppl shoot on it. > [@Stitch\_Kaneland](#): > > If you really want to win the objective, pop their anchor FCs sit in Monitors in such fleets, which is a Cruiser with 356k EHP and the sig radius of an Interceptor. Good look popping that, hint: you won’t. And even if you somehow magically manage to do that: there is always a backup-FC simply because the main FC might get a disconnect. ---
**Author:** ![Stitch\_Kaneland](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stitch_kaneland/32/380745_2.png) [@Stitch\_Kaneland](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Stitch_Kaneland)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 3:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/54 "2019-02-09T03:02:27Z")
> [@Raw\_Matters](#): > > t would go like this: Feroxes jump on battleships, BS hit MJD. 10s of trading hits, then BS are 100km off. Ferox and BS both can still hit each other. 20s later Feroxes are on top of BS again. MJD is still on a 160s cooldown. > > MJD is not going to change the outcome of this battle at all. I fail to see how any of this is at the battleship’s disadvantage. Apoc will outdamage Ferox at 100km and has more tank. Guess what happens when something does more damage and has a higher tank? It wins. I already mentioned if Ferox get ontop of Apocs how it changes literally nothing. Load Gleam, switch scripts in tracking comps to tracking scripts, get Large pulse laser tracking and if you’ve got TPs or Webs in your fleet, you’ll be popping Ferox’s easily. As again, the same situation is present at 0km as it is at 100km, The Apoc’s have more tank and do either more or the same damage as the Ferox’s in close range. You act like the battleships can’t just.. warp-off or ping and reposition just like the Ferox. 20s is enough time for them to pop a few Ferox as they align to their next perch before, i’m assuming, the Ferox burn backwards 50km and try to warp to the Apocs again. > [@Raw\_Matters](#): > > Sig is just completely irrelevant in big fleet battles. Interceptors to Battleships get one-shot all alike if just enough ppl shoot on it. Its completely relevant if your whole tactic is to land at 0km against a battleship fleet in your battlecruiser fleet. When your battlecruiser has a signature larger than the battleships you’re fighting and expecting to have some kind of tactical advantage because you think their guns won’t track you. ---
**Author:** ![Raw\_Matters](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/raw_matters/32/462866_2.png) [@Raw\_Matters](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Raw_Matters)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/55 "2019-02-10T02:08:55Z")
> [@Stitch\_Kaneland](#): > > I fail to see how any of this is at the battleship’s disadvantage. That seems to be the problem. You seem to think that battles of such big fleets are about who will kill the other one with great strategical maneuvers, while in reality it is all about killing as much ISK on the enemy side as possible, and the one that destroyed the most ISK wins. So bringing more expensive ships does not automatically guarantee a win, because those also mean you need to kill much faster than the enemy in cheap ships, or you loose the ISK war. In a 1:1 the BS will kill the Ferox if both sit still at 100km distance, but that is not what will happen, both FCs will try to get their fleet in the most optimal position. The BS can MJD once, but then that’s it. Then the Ferox fleet will sit on top of them again 20s later and trade kills. I literally just had a fight Ferox vs. Maelstroms, because Test felt like feeding. In the end we lost 10b while they lost 30b. You can do that in one fight if it is really necessary, but if you keep doing that you will loose way too much money over all those battles. > [@Stitch\_Kaneland](#): > > You act like the battleships can’t just… warp-off or ping and reposition just like the Ferox. Sure you can reposition, but every time you do that you loose ships that got tackled on the way. And Feroxes will not burn 50km backwards, they will warp to a ping then back on top of the Apoc fleet. And they only have to do that once every 3 minutes, because the MJD has a 3 minute cooldown. Suse you could keep jumping around with the BS even without MJD, but if you keep doing that, the fight would be won by those ships which are more agile and can lock faster, which will be the Ferox fleet in this example. > [@Stitch\_Kaneland](#): > > When your battlecruiser has a signature larger than the battleships you’re fighting and expecting to have some kind of tactical advantage because you think their guns won’t track you. The tactical advantage of sitting on top of the BS is to maximize damage so the enemy logistics cannot react fast enough to remote rep those ships. The FC will probably fly those Feroxes around the BS slowly to reduce damage a bit, but then even if only 100 of those 200 BS hit, the Ferox will instantly explode. And the FC is going to willingly let his ships die, because for every 120m lost on their side, 200m explode on the enemy side, so the ISK battle is won. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/please-balance-fleet-pvp-battlecruisers/136752/56 "2019-05-11T02:08:59Z")
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