# Potential Fix for WHers for the 500mn HIC **URL:** \ **Category:** Assembly Hall\ **Created:** [September 17, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020 "2018-09-17T19:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Sylvia\_Kildare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sylvia_kildare/32/416948_2.png) [@Sylvia\_Kildare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sylvia_Kildare)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/202 "2018-09-18T13:42:57Z")
I’d prefer things remain as they are OR disallow MWD usage while bubbles are on OR new script for bubbles that reduces mass, existing scripts/unscripted no longer reduce mass OR no 500MN MWD allowed to be fitted to the Hictor class of ships (that’s quite a few options there). The Porpoise mass reduction idea is nice, but it’s still 20x+ times bigger than a Hictor with 4 bubbles on, so it’s way more likely to get trapped on the wrong side of a hole it’s rolling. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I’m tired of hearing the complaints about this. When you ran for CSM, did you think there would be no complaining? It’s kinda what you signed up for, whether in full knowledge or inadvertently. It’s kinda what the EVE forums/EVE reddit/etc. are known for. I mean, let’s not kid ourselves, it’s what the human race is known for, but EVE players make an artform out of it. But, if it really bothers you that much, you can just ignore us, like most of the rest of the CSM appears to be doing. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/203 "2018-09-18T14:55:41Z")
> [@Piper\_Fei](#): > > How could you possibly think that organizing non-aligned voters is more effective than being in a massive coalition with 10k+ votes when the top vote recipient Aryth received 6644 votes in round 1? Sort Dragon, the top representative of the northern coalition received 3767. Do you think GOTG and the north were incapable of voting for sort dragon? Were they confused by the ballot? The reason why there are 5 Imperium members on the CSM this year is because they have substantially more accounts available to vote than anyone else in the game. And btw, your friend may have a lot of accounts, but he doesn’t have 6000 accounts. A. Not my friend, just someone I’m aware of. And no, he doesn’t have 6,000 accounts. He _does_, however, have more accounts than Sort got votes. And he’s not the only SP-farmer who does. Think about that for a moment. B. Not only do I not think GotG and the north were incapable of voting for Sort, I know for a fact that not every Imperium member voted the state ticket, and a fair number of those who didn’t _did_ vote for Sort because of past performance on the CSM. C. I think the statement I disagreed with was that we had “more players than the rest of the game combined” and was about “null sec resource harvesting”, but you go ahead and conflate two different issues there. The reason why there are _six_ Imperium members on the CSM (Jin’taan is now in Init Mercs) and _seven_ members of the CSM who were on our ticket is pretty simple: the north _didn’t_ put together an official slate of candidates. Killah’s said as much multiple times. Then when you factor in that Legacy’s preferred candidate, Creecher, was disqualified too late for them to get another one to the top of their ballot… yeah, more votes shifted toward our guys because ‘they’re nullsec’. We got a lot of votes from outside the Imperium, because nobody else in null _had_ an organized ballot. Do I think organizing non-aligned voters is _more_ effective than building an organization that exists beyond just the CSM process? Uhm… hell no? Where did I even say that I did? That’d be idiotic. I believe organizing non-aligned voters is more effective than _disorganized_ non-aligned voters. And no, there are no game mechanics that can _really_ deter the kind of congregation we currently see without _breaking_ the sandbox nature of EVE. Because all of that cooperation, all of that organization that takes place outside the game isn’t about the CSM, and it isn’t about mining and ratting. It’s about _tomorrow_. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/205 "2018-09-18T15:16:55Z")
> [@Piper\_Fei](#): > > If you can’t provide the answer because CCP has instructed you not to, then fine. Tell us you can’t discuss that option. Don’t try and dodge the question. Don’t try and transition to some esoteric argumentation about intent. I don’t have the data and even if I did, I couldn’t share it. 500mn HICs in nullsec are necessarily going to impact more players than WHs, given the amount of the population in nullsec and the amount of the population in WHs who use them. That’s not a knock on WHers, it’s just a fact of life. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/206 "2018-09-18T15:20:53Z")
> [@Chingy\_Chonga](#): > > There are plenty of ways to fix this issue without completely destroying one side of the issue. Like making it unable to active both modules at once, but no CSM is so hard for null they don’t ever want to consider that anything matters but themselves. The funny thing is that the compromise I suggested here was drafted by wormholers. So, hey. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/207 "2018-09-18T15:24:40Z")
> [@Sylvia\_Kildare](#): > > When you ran for CSM, did you think there would be no complaining? > > It’s kinda what you signed up for, whether in full knowledge or inadvertently. > > It’s kinda what the EVE forums/EVE reddit/etc. are known for. I mean, let’s not kid ourselves, it’s what the human race is known for, but EVE players make an artform out of it. > > But, if it really bothers you that much, you can just ignore us, like most of the rest of the CSM appears to be doing. I wasn’t talking about complaints in general. I’m used to that. I was talking about the complaint that there is no WH-based person on the CSM. That is both a useless complaint, and one that is completely the fault of folks in WHs, and nobody else’s. They did not unite around a single candidate as they have in the past, they failed to take advantage of the STV system and bullet voted Exookie and when he didn’t have enough votes to last to the next round all of the rest of their votes were wasted. That was their choice, and the fact that I’m the only CSM willing to listen and engage with you guys is unfortunate. But I’m still here, listening and passing information, because that’s my job. ---
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/208 "2018-09-18T15:28:51Z")
> [@Piper\_Fei](#): > > . If your argument is - I’ve messed up before and I didn’t complain - you’re probably just not very knowledgeable about how to manage rolling holes, because currently there is little chance of being collapsed out barring egregious player error. That’s not my point - my point is that the benefit of being able to keep others out of your wormhole should be counterbalanced by the risk of getting stuck on the wrong side while doing it. We should just agree to disagree, I think. ---
**Author:** ![BalticBeast14](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/balticbeast14/32/242877_2.png) [@BalticBeast14](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BalticBeast14)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/209 "2018-09-18T15:34:55Z")
@Brisc_Rubal I’m no expert in this field, and I won’t suggest anything, but I just wanted to thank you for your effort and dedication to find solution for this precious issue. Very much appreciated. Cheers ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/210 "2018-09-18T15:34:58Z")
> [@Ailok\_Konem](#): > > There are very limited mass wh’s out there like Unidentified Wormholes were HIC fleets of 30-40 ppl are a thing. ‘Undentified Wormholes’ are the Drifter Hive systems. They’re Class 2 wormholes with a max mass of 750,000,000. That fleet you linked had a total mass of 482,233,100kg. So getting through a Hive system wouldn’t be a problem… I mean, I wouldn’t _advise_ it, since there’s a pretty good chance of hitting Drifters when you come out in either direction, and they would’ve blown away at least one ship each before dying, because you guys _weren’t_ fitted to take them on. (To do that, you’d want your Basilisks to be flying a fit that sacrifices a lot of tank for speed, because the cap chain aggresses the Drifters more than even weapons fire and EWAR does. They’d also need to be running Halos. And they could still end up eating a 3/4 million EHP DD.) Getting back’s only a problem _because_ of the HICs. The Onyx is 6m kg more massive than the Gila. If those Onyxs and Cerbs were all Gilas (you know, choosing the lighter ship because you’re taking a wormhole, something people actually do have to do), the fleet’s mass comes in at 339,473,100kg. Enough to go both ways. Even if you’d brought 2-3 HICs to tackle the Rorqs… which self-tackle anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Sin\_Dekko](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sin_dekko/32/441180_2.png) [@Sin\_Dekko](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sin_Dekko)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/211 "2018-09-18T15:56:48Z")
Actually… wormholer’s do train into HICs for rolling holes, but obviously they us that skill for its intended use when appropriate, which as it happens i find is less than rolling. i find interdictors serve the bubbling purpose better generally. ---
**Author:** ![Randolf\_Thellere](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/randolf_thellere/32/97098_2.png) [@Randolf\_Thellere](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Randolf_Thellere)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/212 "2018-09-18T17:22:16Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I want to hear from you all about whether you think this will solve the problem. The answer is: No, I don’t think think it will solve the problem! But thank you for asking. I appreciate it. Porpoise is already ridiculously light for it’s size - 859m long axis, 53m more than the Raven. And while even hardcore WH-miners might have use for a bubbler at times, having to train Mining Forman V for rolling (only until the promised permanent solution) sucks for non-miners. A mass reduction script on the other hand (also proposed in the original topic’s replies) would do the trick as a stop-gap-meassure - of course only if it prevents activation while a propmod is running and vice versa. But such a propmod interlock is already implemented in the game - between AB and MWD for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Imustbecomfused](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imustbecomfused/32/140896_2.png) [@Imustbecomfused](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imustbecomfused)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/213 "2018-09-18T19:26:33Z")
you missed the entirety of my point… but you keep on keeping on bud. face palm ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/214 "2018-09-18T19:34:44Z")
You asked if it matters. It matters. ---
**Author:** ![Imustbecomfused](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/imustbecomfused/32/140896_2.png) [@Imustbecomfused](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Imustbecomfused)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/215 "2018-09-18T19:42:56Z")
like i said, if you blow out 4 of your 8 cylinders in your car, you cant just fix two of them and put new oil in it. and EXPECT it to be fixed or to run correctly. if the ■■■■ is broken its broken, it dont matter what oil you put in it in relation to the csm. well, it should represent the people and CCP and the game development all in one. anytime it miss represents the parts its design to cover, well its not functioning correctly. so in that case, you can put who ever in what ever position you want. its still not working correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/216 "2018-09-18T20:02:40Z")
And if your brake pads wear out, you don’t need to replace your engine. Some problems are more far-reaching than others. A broken tail light is not ‘time to replace the car’. The CSM does not exist to represent CCP or the game devs. The CSM exists to provide feedback to the devs in the form of their own input and whatever they can gather from the playerbase when they feel they are not personally knowledgeable enough on a specific issue. That’s what its purpose is. So, while you’re bitching about Brisc, take a moment and notice that he feels he isn’t personally knowledgeable enough on this issue to provide CCP with expert or comprehensive feedback about it, so he’s asking _you_ for help. And you’re spitting in his face for that. ---
**Author:** ![Valius\_Kreal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valius_kreal/32/114938_2.png) [@Valius\_Kreal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valius_Kreal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/217 "2018-09-18T21:49:44Z")
could they not add a mod that allows you to scan a Wh to see how much mass is left on it . make it stupid fitting cost and put it in a high slot or something. i know it doesnt drop your mass but at least lets you do the relevant calculations to insure you dont get rolled out. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvia\_Kildare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sylvia_kildare/32/416948_2.png) [@Sylvia\_Kildare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sylvia_Kildare)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/218 "2018-09-18T22:07:39Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I wasn’t talking about complaints in general. I’m used to that. > > I was talking about the complaint that there is no WH-based person on the CSM. That is both a useless complaint, and one that is completely the fault of folks in WHs, and nobody else’s. They did not unite around a single candidate as they have in the past, they failed to take advantage of the STV system and bullet voted Exookie and when he didn’t have enough votes to last to the next round all of the rest of their votes were wasted. That was their choice, and the fact that I’m the only CSM willing to listen and engage with you guys is unfortunate. > > But I’m still here, listening and passing information, because that’s my job. Ah, fair enough. I’m a complainer about the 500MN HICtor changes killing rolling critical wormholes, but don’t care about the WH (or HS or LS) slots that people want for CSM, so there ya go. Thought you meant complaining in general. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Piper\_Fei](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/piper_fei/32/97205_2.png) [@Piper\_Fei](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Piper_Fei)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/219 "2018-09-18T22:49:35Z")
First off, I’m not asking for specific data points, I’m asking you to clearly lay out **your** argument for the aggressive urgency in addressing the lurch hic bug without a viable rolling alternative for wormhole residents. Most importantly, **you still didn’t answer question 6.** Why is an explicit hull restriction against 500MN mwds on HICs not a better solution to your stated problem than the currently proposed change? You still haven’t answered that question once, and it’s the first question that needs to be answered. If you can’t explain why this more direct and precise solution is worse than the one proposed in the patch notes, then you wouldn’t really be advocating, you’d be pandering. ---
**Author:** ![Piper\_Fei](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/piper_fei/32/97205_2.png) [@Piper\_Fei](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Piper_Fei)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/220 "2018-09-18T23:29:50Z")
People are upset with Brisc because he is making light of a high impact change, is using language that downplays the difference between a rolling HIC and his proposed porpoise alternative, and because people have **repeatedly presented the objectively more direct and precise solution of an explicit HIC hull restriction against 500MN MWDs** and Brisc has yet to respond with anything other than overt deflection, outright ignoring the statement, and irrelevant comments like “HICs were never meant to be used for rolling wormholes”. I believe he’s responding this way because he is personally vested in resolving the lurch HIC interaction. That was his stated platform when running for CSM, so a production chcange that fixes the lurch HIC would be a Mark of personal success for him. The problem he has is there is still a risk that CCP will revert the proposed change as they have done many times in the past when the community creates sufficient uproar. If CCP actually hears out the community voice on this issue, they’ll realize that the change as proposed has an incredibly high impact on wormhole residents, even more so than they initially realized. If that happens - then Brisc’s efforts will be for naught. Based on his responses, it appears that Brisc is interested only in the fix that’s already in the devops pipeline, and is now trying to placate and run defense for his political agenda, as opposed to looking for a better solution in light of the public outcry around the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/221 "2018-09-18T23:51:40Z")
Well, that’s possibly because people don’t know Brisc. Brisc isn’t making light of anything. He’s taking this very seriously, but attempting to keep the _conversation_ relatively upbeat with a bit of humor. It’s how some people try to keep things moving, without having them devolve into ‘YOU ALL SUCK’. This _started_ at ‘you all suck’ from a lot of the players. What’s more, while you say “Brisc has yet to respond with anything other than overt deflection, outright ignoring the statement, and irrelevant comments like “HICs were never meant to be used for rolling wormholes”.”, that kind of seems to ignore **this** exchange: > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > > [@Arrendis](#): > > > > what’s _wrong_ with just having a script that makes the bubble generator _not bubble_ , but instead produces mass reduction? > > This was the first thing I proposed. I do not know how long it would take to create this script or get it populated, and it also is something that is fundamentally weird for that class of ship because it just doesn’t make sense for the original purpose of the ship. > > But I 100% brought this up in discussions today. And, as you noted, I can’t tell you what the response was, unfortunately. Which, you know, would _appear_ to directly contradict your claims that he’s not responding with anything but deflection and ignoring things. I mean, how many times can he really say ‘I already suggested to them that they put this script in’? More, how many times does he have to say it before you acknowledge he’s said it? > [@Piper\_Fei](#): > > Based on his responses, it appears that Brisc is interested only in the fix that’s already in the devops pipeline, and is now trying to placate and run defense for his political agenda, as opposed to looking for a better solution in light of the public outcry around the issue. Or, you know, the ‘better solution’ that keeps getting suggested (because it’s the freaking **obvious** solution that anyone with half a brain would already have in the works) is one… he’s already suggested. The fix for this is obvious. It should be ridiculously simple to do. It is literally putting ‘check for this ammo type’ in the middle of ‘on activation, call these functions’. There’s no excuse for not putting that in when the changes go in. **None**. And he suggested _that_ before the dev blog went up. The stumbling block obstructing the better idea is **CCP**. You wanna be pissed at them that the solution any two goldfish could’ve thought up won’t be going in at the same time as this change when it is literally just a matter of IF check in the middle of the existing logic on these modules? Great! But to accuse Brisc of ignoring what he’s being told when _he doesn’t have to be asking for ideas at all_… that’s just freaking stupid. That’s letting your anger make you draw conclusions that just are _not_ supported by the evidence. You see any _other_ CSM tanking this? Hell, even _Jin’taan_ is staying the hell away from this festering dogpile of vicious bullshite, and he’s solo-tanked the entire damn community on previous devblogs. This time? Not a _word_. What Brisc is interested in is doing right by the people playing the game. If he didn’t care about that, he could leave this crap to Aryth. Aryth legitimately _loves_ your anger and outrage. Public outcry is the tit upon which he nurses. Instead, you’re dealing with a decent guy whose day job has taught him how to let crap roll off his back. And you’re getting pissy about that. ---
**Author:** ![Piper\_Fei](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/piper_fei/32/97205_2.png) [@Piper\_Fei](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Piper_Fei)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/222 "2018-09-19T00:10:11Z")
How is him stating that he already suggested they create a mass reduction script have anything to do with the repeated direct question regarding a 500MN MWD restriction on HIC hulls? That’s completely not the same thing. One is ADDING an object to the game, the other is modifying existing fitting restrictions infrastructure. There are already checks in place that preclude certain fitting combinations. Use that existing mechanism to prevent HIC 500MN MWDs and the lurch problem is solved without the collateral damage of wormholers. That’s been proposed multiple times, and what did Brisc say to that suggestion? “But HICs were never meant for rolling wormholes” …strong engagement, very productive conversation… [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020.md?page=10) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020.md?page=12)