# Potential Fix for WHers for the 500mn HIC **URL:** \ **Category:** Assembly Hall\ **Created:** [September 17, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020 "2018-09-17T19:51:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/263 "2018-09-19T15:42:49Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > Who do you represent on the CSM anyway? Players or devs? I represent the players. All the players - both the nullsec players who will benefit from the change, and the WHers who will be negatively impacted. I’m going to be honest and I’m going to do my job to represent you to CCP. That doesn’t mean I’m going to be a sycophant and just rage whenever the players rage, especially if I think they’re not being reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/264 "2018-09-19T15:49:07Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I agree that EVE’s a lifestyle, and we can debate whether it’s fun or fulfilling, but that sounds more like a “Taste Great/Less Filling” debate than a real difference on opinions. Dammit, it’s not even noon and now I want a beer. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I’m going to be honest and I’m going to do my job to represent you to CCP. That doesn’t mean I’m going to be a sycophant and just rage whenever the players rage, especially if I think they’re not being reasonable. As a fan of Edmund Burke, I can’t fault you for insisting on giving us your judgment, as well as your industry, even when I think you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/265 "2018-09-19T15:49:55Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Dammit, it’s not even noon and now I want a beer. For the record, I’m a “Less Filling” kind of guy. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/266 "2018-09-19T15:55:22Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > you can argue they were insensitive about it, but at some point folks need to stop leading with their chins and looking for insults where none were intended Probably, but when someone knows (because they were told that, repeatedly, in person) that this is going to be a hot-button issue, maybe they should make an effort to convey that understanding instead of being flippant about it. And yeah, ‘as they often are’ was flippant. People have a beef. They’ve got a legit reason for it. Unfortunately, you get to tank it, cuz you’re the guy trying to play Bill Clinton in this Arafat/Rabin scenario. (And yeah. Yeah, I totally went with the Democratic POTUS on purpose there. 😛 ) ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/267 "2018-09-19T15:57:25Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > folks seem to think that CCP is making development decisions designed specifically to disrespect certain players. NO! I’m sure they didn’t set out to offend or disrespect. That is not the point being made. But the manner in which this change was made **WAS** disrespectful even if that was not the intent. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I represent the players. All the players - both the nullsec players who will benefit from the change, and the WHers who will be negatively impacted. You know just for once I want to see how people react if a change is made that postively affects WHs and negatively affects NS. For once! Even while making the change CCP acknowledged that we are often “ **unwilling** collateral damage”. You can only push people so far before they react. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > they went out of their way to say they know that this would negatively impact one group And the insensitive (your word, not mine) way they did this made things worse IMHO. Lets not forget that **we were promised they wouldn’t do this**. As a side point, this is why it would have been important to have someone who lives in wormholes on the CSM because you guys don’t seem to really understand why we’re all so p!ssed off. ---
**Author:** ![Duo\_Roman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/duo_roman/32/379186_2.png) [@Duo\_Roman](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Duo_Roman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/268 "2018-09-19T15:58:37Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > But my point stands - it’s just absurd that folks seem to think that CCP is making development decisions designed specifically to disrespect certain players. We don’t think it is “specifically to disrespect certain players” but the fact that they simply don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/269 "2018-09-19T16:02:22Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > You know just for once I want to see how people react if a change is made that postively affects WHs and negatively affects NS. Why would they do that? Why would they do something that hurts far more players than it helps? > [@nomadd79](#): > > As a side point, this is why it would have been important to have someone who lives in wormholes on the CSM because you guys don’t seem to really understand why we’re all so p!ssed off. I understand why you guys are pissed off, even if I think you’re blowing it out of proportion. And I 100% agree with the idea that it would be great to have someone who lives in wormholes on the CSM, so hopefully you guys can figure this out next election and get somebody elected. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/270 "2018-09-19T16:03:00Z")
> [@Duo\_Roman](#): > > We don’t think it is “specifically to disrespect certain players” but the fact that they simply don’t care. If they fix this, will it show you guys that they do care? ---
**Author:** ![teddy\_Gbyc](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teddy_gbyc/32/389448_2.png) [@teddy\_Gbyc](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/teddy_Gbyc)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/271 "2018-09-19T16:09:20Z")
it would be a step in the right direction but they have a lot of trust to rebuild from the years of ass ■■■■■■■ us. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/272 "2018-09-19T16:13:05Z")
> [@teddy\_Gbyc](#): > > it would be a step in the right direction but they have a lot of trust to rebuild from the years of ass ■■■■■■■ us. So that’s a no? ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/273 "2018-09-19T16:14:09Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > > As a side point, this is why it would have been important to have someone who lives in wormholes on the CSM because you guys don’t seem to really understand why we’re all so p!ssed off. > > I understand why you guys are pissed off, **even if I think you’re blowing it out of proportion**. No one who lives in a wormhole or has spent any time rolling holes being told that rolling HICs were going to be removed without an obvious replacement will think that the reaction was out of proportion. You’re kinda making my point for me. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Why would they do that? Why would they do something that hurts far more players than it helps? So are you saying the converse is fine? If more people will benefit than not then the negatively affected minority just has to suck it up huh? > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > so hopefully you guys can figure this out next election and get somebody elected. I agree. If it was up to me I’d go further and guarantee representation from NS, HS, LS and WHs on the CSM so that all players and play styles are always represented… and I’d find a way to stop the biggest alliances/coalitions from using their sheer size to dominate the CSM. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/274 "2018-09-19T16:14:41Z")
It’s a ‘it’s a _start_’. Years of neglect don’t get undone with one course correction, man. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/275 "2018-09-19T16:16:46Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > and I’d find a way to stop the biggest alliances/coalitions from using their sheer size to dominate the CSM. Oh, that’s easy: abolish democracy. As long as you have a democratic process to determine representation, numbers and organization will always win. It’s just how things work. Throw in all the variations and twists you like, it just changes the margins. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/276 "2018-09-19T16:19:03Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Oh, that’s easy: abolish democracy. > > As long as you have a democratic process to determine representation, numbers and organization will always win. It’s just how things work. Throw in all the variations and twists you like, it just changes the margins. Um… Not quite. There’s a reason why California and Wyonming both get 2 senators each despite Wyoming having a smaller population that some neighbourhoods in LA. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/277 "2018-09-19T16:23:13Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > No one who lives in a wormhole or has spent any time rolling holes being told that rolling HIC were going to be removed without an obvious replacement will think that the reaction was out of proportion. > > You’re kinda making my point for me. I could understand the reaction if this was the only way to roll holes. It’s not. And I know plenty of wormholers who started figuring out what the new meta would be rather than rushing to the forums and screaming about how offended they were. WHers are supposed to be the scary people who adapt and manage to live and have fun in areas of space nobody else can hack it in. That flies in the face of the massive pushback from people upset that they will no longer have a 99.99% foolproof way of rolling holes and may have to rely on a 98.2% effective alternative instead. > [@nomadd79](#): > > So are you saying the converse is fine? If more people will benefit than not then the negatively affected minority just has to suck it up huh? Yes - this is how this stuff works pretty much everywhere. That’s not making a value judgment that it’s right, but simply that it’s how decisions like this largely get made. Needs of the many vs. needs of the few. > [@nomadd79](#): > > I agree. If it was up to me I’d go further and guarantee representation from NS, HS, LS and WHs on the CSM so that all players and play styles are always represented… and I’d find a way to stop the biggest alliances/coalitions from using their sheer size to dominate the CSM. I’ve explained elsewhere why this won’t work. It’s almost impossible to pin players down to a single playstyle, and even if it’s self-selected, unless CCP starts doing in-depth background checks on every candidate to make sure they fit the slot - which they don’t have the resources to do - it’s not going to solve anything. And since you can’t narrow the voter pool so that only WHers get to vote for the WH guy, there’s nothing stopping the big blocs (who are only powerful in elections because they can get their members to vote - stunning how that works) from backing somebody who isn’t really qualified to fit that slot. If Aryth decides to run for the wormhole slot, he’s going to win. The system we have now is the most efficient way of doing things. If folks want a change, they need to recruit good candidates and rally behind those candidates, taking advantage of the STV to make sure that at least one of their top guys makes it on. If they don’t do that, that’s not on the CSM or CCP, it’s on the voters. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/278 "2018-09-19T16:28:07Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > > So are you saying the converse is fine? If more people will benefit than not then the negatively affected minority just has to suck it up huh? > > Yes - this is how this stuff works pretty much everywhere. This is actually not accurate. Most functioning democracies have minority protections. Each state in the US getting 2 Senators each makes it impossible for the bigger, more populous states to just steamroll their will over the smaller ones. If this was how it worked then only changes that affected cities and large urban areas would ever be enacted and rural areas and farming communities would just have to suck it up. That is a recipe for resentment that will eventually and inevitably boil over at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/279 "2018-09-19T16:31:52Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > Um… Not quite. There’s a reason why California and Wyonming both get 2 senators each despite Wyoming having a smaller population that some neighbourhoods in LA. Yup, there is. Now if only the groups in California and Wyoming (only one ‘n’ in there) were completely isolated from one another and unable to make common purpose with say, Nevada and Utah, and POOF, suddenly the _coalition_ of States has 8 Senators. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/280 "2018-09-19T16:34:29Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > And I know plenty of wormholers who started figuring out what the new meta would be rather than rushing to the forums and screaming about how offended they were. Pffft. It’s easy enough to do both at once in this day and age, Brisc. Multi ~~box~~ tasking, bro! ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/281 "2018-09-19T16:37:44Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > This is actually not accurate. Most functioning democracies have minority protections. Each state in the US getting 2 Senators each makes it impossible for the bigger, more populous states to just steamroll their will over the smaller ones. > > If this was how it worked then only changes that affected cities and large urban areas would ever be enacted and rural areas and farming communities would just have to suck it up. > > That is a recipe for resentment that will eventually and inevitably boil over at some point. Are you really going to argue _this_ point with me? You know what I do for a living, right? Look at how the federal government parcels out road funding. Look at how cities soak up tax dollars at the expense of rural areas (it happens all the time and people complain about it all the time). They absolutely do have to suck it up, depending on the situation. Look at how drug companies decide which research to fund - drugs that help the most people get the money, drugs that could help very small number get called “orphans” and are often shunted to the side. This is how every system with limited resources and competing priorities tends to shake out. When a decisionmaker has to decide between two competing priorities, one of the first questions that gets asked is “how many people is this going to impact” on both sides, and generally speaking, unless there is some really significant impact that gets the majority to back off (say, the recent health insurance debate), folks will go with the choice that positively impacts the most people. That doesn’t make it okay, it just makes it the way things are. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020/282 "2018-09-19T16:54:07Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > people complain about it all the time Oh… you mean like when wormholers complaining about HIC changes huh? Like I said previously you can only push people so far. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You know what I do for a living, right? No… as I have no idea who you are outside of eve and wouldn’t expect to. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Yup, there is. Now if only the groups in California and Wyoming (caught my typ8o) were completely isolated from one another and unable to make common purpose with say, Nevada and Utah, and POOF, suddenly the _coalition_ of States has 8 Senators. Again, minority protections are important. That’s why any senator can filibuster and stop your coalition of 8. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/potential-fix-for-whers-for-the-500mn-hic/107020.md?page=15)