# Proposal - Crime is not realistically punished **URL:** \ **Category:** Assembly Hall\ **Created:** [May 13, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782 "2023-05-13T17:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fifie\_Brindacier](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fifie_brindacier/32/373279_2.png) [@Fifie\_Brindacier](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fifie_Brindacier)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 10:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/21 "2023-05-14T10:30:58Z")
> [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > So as has been a hot topic it seems over the last few years, ganking and Harassment in highsec has been a serious issue It has! I’ve been learning and watching, even set up a scout alt ( she’s green but gaining in strength ) so I can drop on someone worthy to be on my zkill as my first highsec victim. I have to choose wisely and it’s a serious issue for me. > [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > While the CSM has tried their best with CCP to curb the issue, the problem is that the consequences are simply too easy to avoid, and there are too many loopholes to the current policies, and too many benefits for the criminals doing the ganking and murdering and theft That’s good news. I hope that CCP won’t nerf it to ground before my plans come fruition. > [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > Whether this be deleting the character, running missions for an hour or doing an incursion, the punishments for the crimes do not even remotely resemble an actual “Consequence” for doing what in society is considered the worst possible criminal action. (Intentional Premeditated Murder) Holy crap. I thought it was just a game. This definitely raises the stakes a few notches. But I do take ombrage with “murder” since no one has lost Life due to ganking in the 20 years that this game been running ( Happy Anniversary btw!! ) You should try Hell Let Loose! You will love it! ![capsule_616x353](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/e/d/c/edc48551bd75e435a81b06105eb28c9baa770ab0.jpeg) > [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > if I gank a 20 billion isk freighter in Svala (.6 Highsec), I’m going to gain my cut of 20 billion, and lose a few security status (1.2 I think). This is easily fixed by running a single incursion, or a few missions. Even if it took me a few hours, it’s still nothing but benefit to me. I just took that persons weeks of work, and received literally no penalty comparatively Not bad at all. It seems like freighters are the prime targets. Sounds good to me. > [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > This is not in line with “Eve is about Consequences”. It very much is. If you’re going to haul billions worth of merchandise of course you’re going to get attacked. New Eden is worse than the time of grand Piracy on Earth since back then the nations hired the best privateers to chase those black-flagged vessels of war. Who are the gankers chased by? I mean seriously. Haulers need a protection fleet from point A to B. > [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > Again, The problem is that the person I just ganked may have worked weeks, days or even months for what I just took from them in under 15 seconds. And my consequence for the crime… is well… not really a consequence at all Because it’s not a crime. > [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > The issue ladies and Gentlemen, is that the Punishment, does not fit the crime. And there is no real thought process needed to make a person go… hey… I may want to think twice before I do this There is. Have to consider the target, the system security, choice of ship and ammo, how many in system, on grid, what the target ship is and how it’s moduled and also make sure your coffee cup is away from your desk when the action starts. That’s a lot to consider and that just for starters. > [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > The above will ensure That the game dies. > [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > We all say EvE is about consequences. Unfortunately, these consequences always seem to land on the law abiding citizens, and not the criminals. In my humble opinion, this needs to change Nothing needs to change. There are no _criminals_ in EVE because there is no _law_ but what you can yourself enforce. New Eden is ruled by CONCORD and the big players-formed alliances. If ganking is a problem for you then you can form fleets to go after them. Good luck😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nyx\_Viliana1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nyx_viliana1/32/376238_2.png) [@Nyx\_Viliana1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nyx_Viliana1)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 11:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/22 "2023-05-14T11:01:07Z")
> [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > Your security Status will immediately drop to -10 (Regardless of where it was before because Premeditated intentional Murder with the intention of theft, is a Capital crime with the most severe consequence we as humans can give for it). Can I draw your attention to the line? > Capital crime with the most severe consequence we as humans can give for it). I propose Concord terminates criminals’ capsuleer status, pod you and wipe you from existence. The death penalty is the only way gankers will learn! (yes I’m suggesting biomass them without delay) On a serious note, highsec is way less hostile than ever before. Piracy, wardecs, awoxing are all basically mechanised out of existence. You can’t even ransom people’s SP anymore ☹ - How much safer would you like highsec to be? ---
**Author:** ![Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anthony_fattony_amico/32/391106_2.png) [@Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anthony_FatTony_Amico)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/23 "2023-05-14T15:30:02Z")
You came to the worldwide internet expecting no bullying or “mean” people? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 3:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/24 "2023-05-14T15:44:37Z")
This is completely unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Awesum\_Brutha](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/your_awesum_brutha/32/387010_2.png) [@Your\_Awesum\_Brutha](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Your_Awesum_Brutha)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/25 "2023-05-14T15:51:42Z")
Miner! ---
**Author:** ![Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasminka_duchovnavik/32/397398_2.png) [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasminka_Duchovnavik)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 7:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/26 "2023-05-14T19:17:55Z")
Wes, You would be incorrect. I do not want to Ban PvP in highsec. There are many legal and legitimate methods to pvp in highsec. Wardecs are most definitely not consensual for one. And even with the above you can in fact still “Murder for Proffit”. All this does is make people reconsider Murdering someone because they want their stuff. Highsec is supposed to be “Lawful” Space. Civilized Society. Last I checked the current policies allow Criminals to basically do whatever they want, with almost 0 consequences. As the proposal states. When someone like me offers “REAL” consequences, Equal to someone losing weeks worth of work for the action, It is no Suprise to me that criminals would defend the practice. Of course they would, Trolling and Harassing people is how they play the game and have fun. And… There is nothing wrong with this in EvE, Provided you do it in space that is not considered to be “Lawful” and Civilized". Understand here, that the “Gankers” are Criminals. Murderers, and Thieves. And while such actions are most definitely part of EvE, Just as there are consequences for the Ganked person. There should be Equaly damaging Consequences for the Ganker, In “Lawful” Space. Where these actions are in fact seen as “Illegal”. Unless you are saying, that there is a problem, punishing criminals with a punishment that actually hurts the criminal? And gives some sort of feeling of Justice for the Victim of the crime? Because if that’s your position, well… that would just be Psychotic. ---
**Author:** ![Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasminka_duchovnavik/32/397398_2.png) [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasminka_Duchovnavik)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/27 "2023-05-14T19:28:38Z")
Fifie, Really? Strange, because if there was no crime in EvE except what the players can enforce, Concord would not exist, And neither would the Police and their actions toward criminals in … Highsec and EvE. Gates and Stations wouldn’t shoot you, Refuse to let you Dock, Drop your standings, and on and on and on. Apparently everything you said is fluff in the wind, because EvE Obviously has laws. And rules in highsec. And let me give you the definition of a “Criminal”: Criminal: 2 of 2 ## [noun](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/noun) 1 **:** one who has committed a [crime](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crime) 2 **:** a person who has been convicted of a crime Crime: 1 **:** an illegal act for which someone can be punished by the government especially **:** a gross violation of law 2 **:** a grave offense especially against morality Seems like EvE by Definition does in fact have “Laws” and Crimes and Criminals… Unless your saying some other language is being used here or that somehow the word does not mean what it is defined as… Because I am fairly certain the definitions are the same in any language. * * * > No, Why your really posting is because you do not like the thought of consequences that would actually effect your gameplay. * * * Well.. You know what I send in a letter to people I have ganked who complain about it effecting THEIR gameplay? " “Too Bad, That’s EvE”. It is time Everyone Felt the Consequences of their actions. Everyone plays the game differently, and it is very difficult for some to play their game, when you have people who can break the “(Supposed Laws)”, and do not but profit off of it with seemingly no “Real” consequence". So my response to you complaining about a policy like this is: “Too Bad, EvE has Consequences”. ---
**Author:** ![Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasminka_duchovnavik/32/397398_2.png) [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasminka_Duchovnavik)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 7:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/28 "2023-05-14T19:45:30Z")
@ Anthony. Actually I’m a Ganker myself. My main is in Goonswarm. I am also an Alpha player (As in Alpha Tester for EvE in the early 2000’s). And Participated in Burn Jita, The Ice Blockades, The Bob/Tri/Razor wars (which I was actually in IRON during this war). So your not talking to some noob who’s buthurt I have more isk then most Alliances. My opinions are formulated in an RP manner because I like to talk like that and I RP in Game. ~ This however does not detract from the actual point, Someone who looses a weeks worth of work to a highsec gank, suffers immensely., while the people who perpetrated the act, do not suffer at all or if at all, lets be honest… Not at all. In the interest of fairness and “Content”, I really do think it’s time that Criminals or those who wish to have that play style, start getting sanctioned and consequences like a Criminal would. Ones which really matter and have an effect on their ability to play the game, just like the person who lost all their ■■■■ now might just have to start over from scratch. Your basically saying that you think policies which essentially make one party literally (sometimes) have to start from scratch and nothing, while the Criminal essentially gets off Scott Free, in supposedly “Lawful” space. is a good policy in a game where the slogan is “EvE has Consequences”? What consequences equal the hardship and turmoil you have just caused that player? Certainly not the current ones. If players knew there was a serious consequence for a ganker, they also would be less likely to stop playing because of the gank. Because instead of seeing that same person gank another freight the next day they would know that at the very least they wont be seeing that character around for a few days and the consequence seriously effected that characters ability to play the game in the "Murder Steal Paradigm. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/29 "2023-05-14T19:46:03Z")
> [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > Highsec is supposed to be “Lawful” Space. Civilized Society. Incorrect. A lot of wasted effort typing when starting from false premises. ---
**Author:** ![Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasminka_duchovnavik/32/397398_2.png) [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasminka_Duchovnavik)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/30 "2023-05-14T19:47:41Z")
Koval, CCP would Disagree with you. As they have stated multiple times, and it is in fact even in the Tutorial, that Highsec is “Lawful Space”. It literally says it. And even the developers call it that in their blogs multiple times. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/31 "2023-05-14T19:50:48Z")
High sec is “full of laws” not “law-abiding” space. They say the former yet you think the latter. The point has always been to have the gameplay room for people to break them. You want to take it away. I’m not interested in semantic games. You pretty much parrot every single bingo square on the anti-PVP bingo card. - “In real life” - “Real consequences” - “My main does PVP in nullsec” - “Pulling out the dictionary to define words” - “Emotional damage” - Posting with a forum alt I’m pretty sure everyone in the peanut gallery has won Bingo night at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasminka_duchovnavik/32/397398_2.png) [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasminka_Duchovnavik)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/32 "2023-05-14T19:57:45Z")
At Koval. Now your just playing semantics. Your fully aware that there are consequences in EvE when you break the laws of highsec. So your entire post is just fluff in the wind. Since there are in fact consequences. When you “Break the law”, It can be Logically assumed that it is “Law Abideing Space”. As well as called "Lawful space. Because if you break the laws even currently, there are in fact “Consequinces.”. You are absolutely intelligent enough to understand the argument. And the Subject. You just don’t like it, because then your game gets harder and you can’t play the way you want and drink the tears that fuel you as easily. Your not trollish enough to Troll me bro. I was running scams out of Jita, and Corp killing people for money, Playing months to gain trust just so I could steal ■■■■ from corporate assets, before you even thought about picking up the game. So yes, you know exactly what I am talking about. And playing stupid, doesn’t make you look better. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 7:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/33 "2023-05-14T19:59:34Z")
> [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > Your fully aware that there are consequences in EvE when you break the laws of highsec As are you, so great, no need to change anything! If you’re still confused I defer to my previous posts. ---
**Author:** ![Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasminka_duchovnavik/32/397398_2.png) [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasminka_Duchovnavik)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/34 "2023-05-14T20:01:18Z")
Koval, The point of the post, as your once again fully aware, Is to point out that the current consequences are not actually enough to have the same emotional effect, Nor even in game mechanical, or time effect, on the “Pirate” (You like that better then criminal?), That it does on the person you gank. My solution, Equalizes the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/35 "2023-05-14T20:03:38Z")
> [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > Is to point out that the current consequences are not actually enough to have the same emotional effect > [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > My solution, Equalizes the consequences. 🤣 Please keep talking, you are making my arguments for me. ---
**Author:** ![Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasminka_duchovnavik/32/397398_2.png) [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasminka_Duchovnavik)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/36 "2023-05-14T20:08:40Z")
Koval, You have yet to make an argument. Or present a logical reason in opposition to the proposal. All you’ve done is make a poor attempt to troll me. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/37 "2023-05-14T20:14:55Z")
My argument: “There are enough consequences to violating high sec laws and going criminal”.\* Yours: “Nuh uh! We need to equalize the emotional damage”. \*I even elaborated in detail in another thread about high sec of 10 years ago – peak player popularity. I know you saw this because you “At” me out of the blue in that thread to 💩 on me. Randomly, for no reason, other than to attempt to come off as the tough guy over there. I’m not trolling you, I’m delivering the forum fight _you_ picked. Consequences. As I said, please keep talking. ---
**Author:** ![Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasminka_duchovnavik/32/397398_2.png) [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasminka_Duchovnavik)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/38 "2023-05-14T20:28:13Z")
Koval, So your here because you have emotional damage from another thread where I ■■■■ on you, and you think this… is some kind good way to seek revenge? My god man, that’s some serious tears right there. I am proud to have been able to provoke such a response in you, Means I still got it even after decades of basically retirement from the troll game. In any case, ~ Despite whatever the hell it was I said, in actuality, this proposal is something I view as a serious step in the right direction for EvE. While Highsec offers tons of content for psychotic people like us, At some point we have to step back and realize that this kind of behavior makes EvE in general a toxic arena for the vast majority of players in highsec, who are usually in highsec because they want to potentially avoid that type of conflict. Ganking is a means of forcing this conflict on them, and it is an important part of EvE. However this being said, If there is no real effective method of “Consequence”. Then it will get out of control again as it always does. People will find loopholes, and CCP and the CSM will be right back where they started wasting time trying to fix policy without effecting too much of the “Toxic” gameplay. But that’s the issue. Unless you take a hard stance on Consequence, and Hardcode mechanics that have real effect on Gankers, like their actions have Real effects on others. Then EvE will never be what it can be or could be. Players themselves can Give Bad consequences to Regular players. But rarely are these Players themselves ever actually put in a position to question their own actions. If EvE is about Growth, and about being immersive and realistic, the this is an area which needs serious looking at, and to which my proposal, endeavors to give. ---
**Author:** ![Nyx\_Viliana1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nyx_viliana1/32/376238_2.png) [@Nyx\_Viliana1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nyx_Viliana1)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 8:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/39 "2023-05-14T20:32:31Z")
> [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](#): > > Highsec is supposed to be “Lawful” Space. Civilized Society. CCP’s own policies refer to Eve as a dystopian world. That would include high-sec. > dystopian, _adjective_ > of, relating to, or being an imagined world or society in which people lead dehumanized, fearful lives **:** relating to or characteristic of a [dystopia](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dystopia) > _source: [Dystopian Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dystopian)_ Dystopian doesn’t sound like a world that is safe, or fair, just the opposite. Edit: From the support website: > While CONCORD forces do react quickly and with force, they do not have a mandate to protect attacked players and as such will not necessarily be able to prevent eventual losses if attackers can field sufficient firepower to destroy their targets before CONCORD can intervene. CONCORD should therefore be regarded as a force of retribution, not one of protection. > _source: [https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203208902-CONCORD](https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203208902-CONCORD)_ Seems to me Highsec is very much working as designed and intended. Your version of realistic seems to be based of what you would expect to happen here on Earth, you know this planet where we love to regularly imprison and sometimes execute the innocent (looking at you USA, China, and friends). This however isn’t Earth, nor is it the Sol System or even our galaxy. Things changed when the Eve Gate collapsed, and society evolved. Maybe it isn’t for the better, but it is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yasminka_duchovnavik/32/397398_2.png) [@Yasminka\_Duchovnavik](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yasminka_Duchovnavik)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 8:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782/40 "2023-05-14T20:39:16Z")
@ Nyx, EvE in General, I’d Agree with you. However Empire space is Defined as: The Seat of Humanity, Lawful space, where the 4 Empires prosper. Each Epmires lore, clearly states that in their space Laws are upheld. (Whatever those may be), and they require their citizens to obey these laws. There is entire lore sections about why Concord was created, and why they do what they do, and why the Police forces do what they do. And while of course in space your safety can not be guaranteed, Consequences for criminals in Empire space can be. * * * \*Nothing is stopping a Ganker from Ganking you in my Proposal. \* _I am simply giving the Ganker a Consequence, similar to the one they are visiting on the person being ganked. They will still get the loot salvage and money from the gank, But they will also understand that the character they use for that gank will receive serious consequences for the crime._ _~ The Person they ganked, will have to deal with the loss of their stuff._ _~ The Ganker will have to deal with trying to rebuild their standings enough to get back into highsec without concord killing them and their POD._ _Sounds fair to me._ [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-crime-is-not-realistically-punished/405782.md?page=3)