# Proposal for Rebalancing of the Suicide Gank **URL:** \ **Category:** Crime & Punishment\ **Tags:** high-sec\ **Created:** [June 24, 2022, 9:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013 "2022-06-24T09:28:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![Omnis\_Decline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/omnis_decline/32/335677_2.png) [@Omnis\_Decline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Omnis_Decline)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 8:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1390 "2022-09-29T08:58:05Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It was back at one of the old fanfests So… not current data on how the game _IS_ doing, but old, probably out of date data which may or may not reflect the current state of the game. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > EVEs retention rate is dire. During weekdays, random hours when both US and EU playerbases are mostly not present, the game hasn’t dropped - that I’ve seen - below 10,000 concurrent players. Not total daily, but the number logged in. World of Warcraft, which remains the largest MMO in the market, tends to drop as low as 30,000 in those same off-peak times, and Guild Wars 2, which is still regarded as quite a popular MMO with a good population of players, has PEAK playercounts in the busiest times on the busiest days of less than 8,000 lately, and was described as “one of the most popular MMOs” based on its stats for this year. So I think it’s fair to question the claim that EVE is in anything remotely resembling a “dire” state as it stands now. Even if those player retention numbers are still accurate, that claim isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Omnis\_Decline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/omnis_decline/32/335677_2.png) [@Omnis\_Decline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Omnis_Decline)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 9:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1392 "2022-09-29T09:54:21Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > [@Omnis\_Decline](#): > > > > So… not current data on how the game _IS_ doing, but old, probably out of date data which may or may not reflect the current state of the game. > > If anythign the game is worse now. That was back when CCP was still making money, which they no longer are based on the last PA financials I saw. And… _again_… if you’re going to say something like that, you need a **source** to back it up. “If anything” doesn’t support your claim when you aren’t providing any evidence to back your assertion up. Also, you’re providing a source without even sharing any indication of its age, except the admission that it’s an old source, while refusing to let others use old sources (sometimes even when the source is one you’ve tried to use in the conversation yourself) because they’re outdated and not relevant to the current state of the game. So, either provide _actual_ evidence that supports your claim, or back down from the assertion you can’t support. While you don’t like my evidence, I have explained where I’ve seen evidence that appears quite strongly to contradict your claims. I don’t have it documented, but it’s very easy to log into the game and check if my claims are valid, because it’s based on actual current events that are actually happening continuously in the game. It’s current, and easily verifiable by just looking at what’s going on while you play. ---
**Author:** ![Omnis\_Decline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/omnis_decline/32/335677_2.png) [@Omnis\_Decline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Omnis_Decline)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 10:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1394 "2022-09-29T10:32:42Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I don’t “need” a source, and you can use google. The Nosy Gamer does breakdowns of the financials IIRC tool so you can look there. If you want to just assume it’s not true because I don’t add a link to every single statement I make, feel free. Reality isn’t dependent on you accepting it. I didn’t say you needed a link, I said you needed a _source_ so thanks for providing one which doesn’t actually back up that statement I was asking for a source about, but _might_ back up one of your other claims (which had previously been without a source). > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > 2019 fanfest. I’d use newer retention stats if they were available. And thanks for confirming the age of that one too. That said… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > And by the way, this supports the view that you’re an alt, because you’re now referring to bit of the conversation that happened in a thread closed before your character existed that consisted of thousands of posts. NOPE. It supports the view that I know how to read. And how to click on links to previous topics which have been closed. And that I can see other people talking about the fact that what I mentioned was a thing that happened. I can also see that you’ve done it in one of the topics I’ve posted in as well as having done it in closed topics in the past. Maybe you should get better at keeping track of your own words…? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Demanding evidence from me while admitting you have none yourself. I cited evidence I’ve seen, and provided a source which you can use to check. Same thing I asked for - and was given - just now. So… no. You can check my information from the source as easily as I can check yours, because we both know where the other got their information from, and have access to it if we want to check whether it’s correct or not. You still haven’t provided anything to support your assertion than player retention is as bad as it was 3 years ago, but you’ve backed up your claim about the game not being profitable (which you’ve made unclear statements about since you’ve separately said it’s making a loss and that it’s seeing reductions in revenue, which implies profit, but not growing profit). EDIT: Checked your source, and… yup. It’s losing revenue, not losing money. It’s still making a profit, but by a smaller margin than it did in previous years. And there’s extenuating circumstances which could be seen as major contributors to the decline in profit (still not loss ofr money) during this year. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1396 "2022-09-29T12:46:30Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It was back at one of the old fanfests, EVEs retention rate is dire. The utter hypocrisy just never ends. It was only a few days ago that you asserted _that very same graphic_ was irrelevant as it was several years ago. Now you are quoting it ! Every frikin time you post you do something like this. You just slither about from one act of unbelievable hypocrisy and double standards to another…utterly oblivious to the sheer number of times you have contradicted yourself. And if that graphic is now suddenly relevant…then all the conclusions I myself drew from it are relevant and true as well. It is 100% clear to anyone with a brain that the 9000 or so lost within the first week is FAR more than the number of under 1 week old noobs ganked. But you could not care less about actual facts. You’ll just slither out of it again with yet more mealy mouthed hypocrisy, contradicitons, and double standards. It’s pretty much what we have now all come to expect from you ! Don’t bother responding…as the stink of hypocrisy in here is already too much for me. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1397 "2022-09-29T12:48:36Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I don’t “need” a source, and you can use google. Ah yes, the tried and true go to deflection when someone is caught making stuff up. Speaking of, did you find on the box where it says the AFK gameplay is a core tenet of EvE online. Or are you going to continue to ignore this because you got caught red-handed…. Again. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 1:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1399 "2022-09-29T13:02:04Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Not really, I’m just not going to go out of my way to provide links when I already know that the people […] Nice deflection. But the onus is still on you to provide the links for your sources regardless of what other people do with them. Also, did you find on the box where it says playing AFK is core tenet of EvE? You keep ignoring answering this simple request. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1400 "2022-09-29T13:03:55Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It was at that point Altara started going off on one about me using old data. You mean me pointing out the hypocrisy of you arguing data from 2019 was out of date…while _you_ were happy to use data from 2015 ! ’ What a tangled web we weave…when first we practice to deceive ’ ( Walter Scott ) ---
**Author:** ![T\_Elliot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/t_elliot/32/453851_2.png) [@T\_Elliot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/T_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 1:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1401 "2022-09-29T13:08:52Z")
> [@Omnis\_Decline](#): > > I for one find that hilarious, but also don’t consider it a valid approach to gameplay. I don’t _WANT_ that to be how the game works in future, and because of that, I don’t want your “protection” as a new player. I want there to be some _limited_ safe spaces for me as a new player, but for most of hisec to still come with that modicum of risk where you might get rushed down and killed for your efforts. Learning to manage risk is a part of life in New Eden. Everyone here knows that, even you. You might enjoy playing the fool to try and get sympathy votes and you might even scam a few of the newer players with less research into the game than me. But you _ARE_ a scammer and you _ARE_ grieefing new players by trying to push an agenda that can only harm us, not help us, and doing so for your own personal reasons. I don’t know if you play and are scamming with the pretense of protecting new players to make your own profit margins easier to maintain, or if you’re doing it because you’re justt mad at the devs for some past decision and trying to troll them into killing the game on your word. But either way, you’re the problem here. You are hurting the new player experience more than the people you’re targeting. And you’re hurting new players and experienced players more than you’re hurting CCP, so if your fight is with them, just stop this crusade against the wrong people. Your experiences line up perfectly with mine Omnis Decline. As you point out, much of these proposed “fixes” don’t really help new players, but just serve to infantilize them, and push the moment to when they first get ganked down the road to when the stakes are higher, while watering down what makes EvE unique in the market. This is just a hunch on my part, but since so many of these “fixes” seem to be solutions for lazy veterans to allow them to continue to be lazy, and not solutions for new players, I have concluded that they are just attempts by veterans to allow them to AFK mine with fits for maximum production, or allow them to autopilot valuable cargo in shuttles, or not have to learn how to protect themselves from ganks while they do missions in blinged out ships. Your posts are excellent @Omnis_Decline! Don’t allow others to silence you with their attacks disguised at the protecting hand of Big Brother. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1403 "2022-09-29T13:29:42Z")
> [@T\_Elliot](#): > > As you point out, much of these proposed “fixes” don’t really help new players, but just serve to infantilize them, and push the moment to when they first get ganked down the road to when the stakes are higher, while watering down what makes EvE unique in the market. Here’s the thing …and its something nobody ever seems to mention in noob ganking threads even though it is probably the most relevant thing of all… A brand new noob has only just completed the NPE in which he lost a ship and is told he’d die many more times but is immortal. That noob is primed for more loss. _It’s what that entire part of the NPE is all about_ ! Yet we have **idiots** telling us that this noob, primed for more loss, _told_ of the dangers of Eve, is gonna suffer major psychological trauma and abandon Eve and end up having to have hypnotherapy counselling alongside reformed flat earthers and alien abduction post-proctology victims if they lose another ship. That really is this thread in a nutshell, for those who want to skip 1170 posts. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 2:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1405 "2022-09-29T14:10:13Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > And yet, the developers of the game disagree with you Oh…your latest scam method of arguing…pretending that the developers speak for you now. No, don’t bother yet again mis-quoting something in response. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > “EVE is not for you, go play something else”. Some could do with that advice. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1407 "2022-09-29T14:19:39Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > That’s a requirement you’re laying on me though. I have no such requirement. I see the facts, I state the facts. If you choose not to believe them or to demand I jump through hoops so you can still not believe them, that’s your problem, not mine. I just figured that you would want to be in intellectual integrity with the community. But if you want to be seen as someone who makes stuff up and fabricates information, by all means. Stay the course. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1409 "2022-09-29T14:29:10Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > your little mates think of me. That’s abusive language mate. Don’t be like that. Plus, citing sources regardless of what other people do with it does nothing but make you look more knowledgeable and give’s heavier credence to your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1410 "2022-09-29T14:39:57Z")
Why do you bother replying to a guy desperate for a forum post from CCP: > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Ask him though. @CCP_Rattati, in the following slide, when you labelled some highsec PvP as griefing, were you only talking about behaviour that is currently against the EULA, or were you talking about a subset of highsec PvP that is currently allowed within the EULA? Yet IGNORES the POST-FANFEST _forum post_ BY CCP, which should exactly be what he wants: > [@GM's holding strangers accountable for toxic behavior](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/gms-holding-strangers-accountable-for-toxic-behavior/371089/27): > > To be abundantly clear: there has been no policy change for ganking > [@GM's holding strangers accountable for toxic behavior](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/gms-holding-strangers-accountable-for-toxic-behavior/371089/27): > > Asymmetric PvP, as well as ganking, is still allowed in EVE. This OBJECTIVE FACT has been pointed out to him before. It’s not worth engaging anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 2:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1411 "2022-09-29T14:40:11Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > The funny thing is that gankers know this. We know they know this because in the past their response has been “EVE is not for you, go play something else”. The problem is that far too many players are doing just that and as a result EVE is failing to retain a strong enough playerbase to be viable. Well no, the really ‘funny’ thing is how you just _make up_ connections between things…out of the blue. You forget the old maxim that correlation is not causation. FACT :- Ganking has existed in Eve for at least 10 years, and during periods when the player base was _not_ falling. How does your theory explain that ? FACT :- Stats showing the large number of players who abandon Eve during the first week _cannot possibly_ be explained by ganking of large numbers of noobs. Even a ridiculously high estimate of the total number ganked every week ( noobs _and_ oldbies ) is a waaaaay lower figure than the 9400 or so who leave during the first week. The **total** number of non NPC kills in highsec per week is something like 4500. The total number killed by more than one person is around 1200. The number of noobs _actually_ ganked during that first week is way less than 100. _Data you can easily gather yourself._ What is making the _other_ 9300 leave ? There is no way 9300 noobs a week are being ganked…as _there are not even half that many kills in the whole of highsec_ !! FACT : Noobs join a game in which _the very first thing they do_ is lose a ship. It even goes on their personal list of losses. So how can you have the sheer gall to rattle on as if noobs are totally unprepared for ship loss ? FACT :- Noobs loose not just one but TWO ships on level 2 security missions. They lose those ships regardless of what they do. So by this time the noob has lost 3 ships…all part of Eve itself. FACT : More noob Ventures are lost in 0.7, 0.6 systems to NPCs than to gankers. In fact in the whole of highsec more ships are lost to NPCs than player PvP every week. ---
**Author:** ![T\_Elliot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/t_elliot/32/453851_2.png) [@T\_Elliot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/T_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 2:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1412 "2022-09-29T14:45:06Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > In absolute terms this is what happens but in relative terms it’s not. Early player losses tend to be a higher percentage of net worth and take far more effort to recover from. This is what CCP were saying in fanfest, that the problem is the lack of ability to bootstrap back into their ships. It’s also why most MMOs significantly reduce death penalties for newer characters. I know that asking for hard numbers on this is going to be futile, but I am very suspicious that it is harder for a new player who just lost a frigate that was given to them for free from the AIR missions to recover from having their frigate shot than it will be for an older player that has sunk everything they own into their first procurer, or a mission runner that has sunk everything into their first golem. It may be because I am an old head, and I remember how exciting it was to work my way up the frigate line to be able to mine in a destroyer. I lost frigates for silly reasons, and it was not such a big deal back then. If CCP thinks that new players cannot recover from the loss of their first venture, I suspect that it is because the player was given their first venture from CCP, and did not have to scrape up the ladder mining from a corvette, saving up for their first frigate, then moving up the frigate line saving up for a destroyer. Some people know what they are about, and will will benefit from a boost up, but it seems more likely to me that giving players things at the beginning makes them less resilient to loss. CCP can go to their own conclusions. They own the game. But from my experience starting out playing EQ, and then watching MMO’s in general become easier and less immersive as the years go by, it feels like the player base have also become less resilient to loss. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s strange that you say that, yet EVE is inspired by Elite and very much based around the player-driven economy, and you seem to have zero issues with P2W microtransactions and CCP directly dabbling in the economy. I also don’t recall you complaining about instanced content, another more recent trend CCP has engaged in that goes against previously stated principles. I am curious if you can quote me ever saying one thing or another about p2w microtransactions. I also have not complained about the covid lock-downs in Chongqing, or the road construction in front of my office, or my cat killing rabbits and leaving them as presents for my wife. Do you make assumptions about my feelings about these events as well? I guess you are trying to say that I am hypocritical because I don’t complain about CCP selling skill points, plex or ship packages, while I do complain about the call to nerfing suicide ganking. If you want to know my feelings about these other aspects of EvE Lucas, feel free to make a new thread about it, and I will join your in the discussion. However, from what I have seen the big topic of discussion on the forum is the constant cry to bring out the nerf bat against suicide ganking, and so I made my post on the matter. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You’ve concluded wrong because any veteran can already do that. For mining for example, it’s incredibly rare to see gankers go after large mining fleets, even when they are in untanked ships because those fleets replace themselves quickly and won’t provide the source of salt the gankers are after. Your conclusion is nothing more than a justification you are using so that you don’t have to engage in a rational debate. I have been mining in a venture and seen the retriever in the same belt get ganked while no-one bothered with me. To be fair the retriever pilot was very salty, and made a big fuss about the gank. He ever threated me when I retrieved his mining drones (I gave them back to him). I do think you are on to something about salt being a motivating factor in ganking, but of all the reasons that is the easiest one to remove through education. I note that you are ignoring the ganking that I think is the most interesting, and the one that I hear the most complaining about online (although not in these forums) those being the ganking of haulers and mission runners. These are the two that cut closest to home for me personally, and the two that I am positive are just veterans complaining. As far as having rational discussions with you Lucas, I tried that, and it is impossible. You are the one that claims that context allows things to mean what you want them to mean in one post, but allows them to mean something else in a different post. I have pretty much given up on rational exchanges with you, because you do not argue in good-faith discussions, but just attempt to use rhetorical tricks to spin out of things that you clearly said three posts up. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 2:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1414 "2022-09-29T14:57:08Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > in particular the opinions people who spend their day harassing and insulting people. As you laid out your qualifier here, does that also mean you don’t care about your own opinions because you’re also guilty of harassing and insulting people here on the forum? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_W\_James](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jesse_w_james/32/316227_2.png) [@Jesse\_W\_James](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jesse_W_James)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 3:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1415 "2022-09-29T15:17:39Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > He said “Highsec is not a new player area”, “gankers are safe”, and “extensive analysis” led him to conclude that the ganking community is not engaged in griefing. I don’t think anything is safe when CCP is losing revenue. If ganking isn’t removed, I believe fundamentally, how it works needs to change greatly. There could be a need for it in high-security space, I believe it is very unbalanced today and needs additional adjustment, but making mining ships and T1 haulers stronger is a little unbalanced. I would like to see less loot dropped, or Omega locks, ship caps, i.e. you can only use so many ships on any gank, and the damage is no more like a structure. We can look at the long history of alts, skill injectors, walking in stations, ship skins, and a whole list of things CCP had to turn their back on. Don’t think this isn’t something on the chopping block to bring in more players and revenue it most certainly is. JJ ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 3:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1416 "2022-09-29T15:17:44Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > The majority of people not retained are likely to be people who can’t be retained no matter what. Woah ! So you just disregard the well over 95% who leave for other reasons as ‘beyond hope’ and never once inquire into _why_ they left but focus _solely_ on a ganking reason for which you don’t even have any definitive figures or player ‘reason for leaving’ responses ? That just smacks of extreme bias. I mean, you don’t _know_ that the smaller number who may have left due to ganking would not have left anyway for the same reasons the other 95% left. I’m FAR more interested in that other 95%. Comments I see in Rookie Help go a long way towards suggesting that the sheer complexity of the game is too much for many. I’ve also seen a lot of ‘Im bored…what should I do ?’. The FEW times I’ve seen a ’ I lost my ship’…the noob was always advised they could easily get another one for free from the mission agent. So why are you so _obsessed_ with ganking, which in fact only occurs in a small region of Eve at any one time. I spent the whole of yesterday afternoon mining in a Venture in a 0.5 system and never once saw a ganker. Even the local corp, which does ganking, couldn’t be bothered ganking my alpha noob. The _only_ hassle I had was from NPCs…and I’d forgotten just how useless noob drone level skills are. Where’s the bleating thread from you protesting to CCP that I could easily have lost my Venture to rats and might have left the game as a result ? ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_W\_James](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jesse_w_james/32/316227_2.png) [@Jesse\_W\_James](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jesse_W_James)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 3:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1417 "2022-09-29T15:25:02Z")
> [@T\_Elliot](#): > > However, from what I have seen the big topic of discussion on the forum is the constant cry to bring out the nerf bat against suicide ganking, and so I made my post on the matter. I would prefer just to get rid of it to be honest. > [@T\_Elliot](#): > > If CCP thinks that new players cannot recover from the loss of their first venture, I am not sure that the loss is unrecoverable, it is more of you are not deep enough in the game to be captured, and there is a decision point, f’k the game or keep going and recover. If the experience wasn’t good enough, most move on to a new game rather than try to figure out how to recover. Losing things in Eve is part of Eve, I am a big support it is how you lose those. Can you have game play back, what is a counter play to gankers? if there is no, and nothing you can do, well ganking is a one sided game play that needs to be moved to low sec, where if I get ganked, I can just go kill you, you can’t game the kill right program, or anything else.. JJ ---
**Author:** ![Jesse\_W\_James](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jesse_w_james/32/316227_2.png) [@Jesse\_W\_James](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jesse_W_James)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 3:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1418 "2022-09-29T15:29:08Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > So why are you so _obsessed_ with ganking, which in fact only occurs in a small region of Eve at any one time. I spent the whole of yesterday afternoon mining in a Venture in a 0.5 system and never once saw a ganker. Even the local corp, which does ganking, couldn’t be bothered ganking my alpha noob. Because it is in the way of thousands of new players coming to the game to maybe one day venture out to low, null and wh. It adds little good content, no one would miss it but a handful if it was gone, and the players that do, do it, can still do it in low, but you might have to actually play the game to gank there. JJ [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013.md?page=57) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013.md?page=59)