# Proposal for Rebalancing of the Suicide Gank **URL:** \ **Category:** Crime & Punishment\ **Tags:** high-sec\ **Created:** [June 24, 2022, 9:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013 "2022-06-24T09:28:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![Jesse\_W\_James](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jesse_w_james/32/316227_2.png) [@Jesse\_W\_James](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jesse_W_James)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 4:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1445 "2022-09-29T16:26:46Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > What a load of baloney. Why would people be any more likely to move out into lowsec than they are now ? Why would noob miners enjoy a highsec riddled with hundreds of totally safe AFK Orcas that sweep the belts clean before they can even get a Venture load of ore ? Altara do we live in alternate realities? We agree ganking isn’t everywhere, the people that want to mine today already mine. Yes we discussed there will be a few spectrum players, but as explained you don’t get more efficient, promise I have tried. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > You keep saying ‘I think’…but it is clear that thinking is a process that has not occurred. You have not really thought about the consequences at all. Remove ganking and every Tom, Dick, and Harry is going to have 100 AFK Orcas in every belt in highsec. Remove ganking and nobody in highsec will bother learning about tanking of ships…they’ll be able to warp all the way from Jita to Amarr in a totally unshielded hauler. Nobody will bother fitting barges with tank. Ganking can’t take out fleets of Orcas anyhow, I want to call you names you are so out of the loop on the game. But I won’t so I shall suffer the rath of your ignorance. > [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > No need to learn about d-scan, or scouting, or corp intel, or tank, or any of 1000 things that the risk of ganking forces people to learn. And you think this FARCE is gonna make people ready for lowsec ?? This is also a myth Shipwreck Jones put in your head. There is no counterplay for ganking. Good gankers come, and minus a fumble once in a while, they succeed in a very high percentage. You think so shallow you don’t see the big picture and I am sorry, but CCP does and as you can see and feel the change has to happen it needs to happen. I am not worried, there are thousands of system to PvP in all day long, go back to a safe high sec reship if you must. Come to fan fest next year maybe drunk it will make more sense. JJ ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 4:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1448 "2022-09-29T16:36:08Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > False. The sandbox element is just that there’s no fixed progression or end-game. Most game elements have some element of PvP, though not all of it combat PvP, but that’s no a trait of the sandbox. Comprehensive and cursory reading are almost mutually exclusive. A bit lower in my post: > [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > No levels, no stories, a strict minimum of rules but plenty of choices. Kelly, does that mean you’re not discussing the points, but the author ??? Naughty naughty !!! 🤣 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You’re categorically wrong. There’s absolutely room for them, just as it currently stands there’s no simple way for them to exist in isolation If I were to call that brick red spot behind you “brick red”, you’d deny it 🤣 🤣 🤣 Next time check Local. Those other names you see are actually other people. Some of them might even try to gank you, 😁 But on a more serious note, if CCP were to put up a new server with PvE only (small v, I love it) and assemble all those PvP averse over there, I would ab-so-lute-ly LOVE IT. It would fix the economy in an instant (no trading between EvE proper and EvE makebeliEvE, you see). They might crown you as King Kelly I, space royalty. And let them have their own forums too, and get this one fixed in the process free of charge. Isolation indeed. When they finally grow up, they can try the real game then. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1449 "2022-09-29T16:42:05Z")
> [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > Altara do we live in alternate realities? Definitely. > [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > Ganking can’t take out fleets of Orcas anyhow Today… > **[Orca | Helene Now | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/103671014/)** > > Helene Now (Acapulco) lost their Orca in Jaschercis (Everyshore). Final Blow by Seething Hawk (Clipped Wingz) flying in a Purifier. Total Value: 1,752,924,581.46 ISK > [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > I want to call you names you are so out of the loop on the game. Really ? I _am_ a ganker. Please lecture me on the subject. > [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > There is no counterplay for ganking Does the dictionary in your bizarre alternate universe have the word ‘Avoid’ in it ? > [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > You think so shallow you don’t see the big picture Ah, there are no mirrors in your alternate universe either. > [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > Come to fan fest next year maybe drunk it will make more sense. Oh yes…would be nice to actually see a troll under a bridge or behind a rock…for a change. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1451 "2022-09-29T16:59:48Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I tend to like the idea of another server too, though I can’t see both surviving long-term. I don’t think anyone is suggesting no PvP at all though. At least we’re making some kind of progress here… I fully expect the “normal” server to survive long-term. There probably isn’t a single pvp’er in this game who doesn’t have a pve income one way or another (the loot fairy is not a nice entity), and plenty of them build their own ships too, and extras to put on the market. A pve only server would kill itself economically, if it would even manage to retain any players due to the quality of the pve game itself. As to the chinese experiment, it will be interesting to see if it would grow beyond the small size that EvE Online on Serenity always was. I would think it is more geared towards the expectations and mentality of the chinese customer, if it is to succeed. That doesn’t imply that it would be a success in a non-chinese environment. That is a very tough call for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1453 "2022-09-29T17:09:08Z")
PvE server is just that. PvE only. For the PvP averse. Think of it, with today’s resource distribution there is no choice: one has to collect resources in \<0.5 systems to make the majority of things. I don’t expect people to become “non-PvP averse” when they cross into LS or NS or W-space. I mean what would we be discussing if that were the case ? Convenience ? Max security ? Wouldn’t make any sense, if it weren’t hypocritical. Regarding the new map on that chinese experiment, I really can’t see the purpose of it. Yes, perhaps it condenses conflict zones, or the chance to bump into one another, because not enough players joined the game. The game would have been served better by attracting more new accounts. And that’s the strange thing. What if the experiment works, and new players stream in. Would they expand the map again ? It looks to me that the chinese publisher/developer (this was done outside of ccp) is simply addressing a situation of too few players on too big a game, with a stalemate in nullsec that has been happening for years (your reference to alliance sizes etc). Even that is a measure for nothing: one cannot avoid smaller alliances to join together under a coalition flag. Coalitions don’t even exist officially on TQ, there’s no such thing as logo, or a standing even. But I’m not familiar with the chinese gaming market, nor with their mentality and culture, to understand the fundamentals of their experiment. ---
**Author:** ![T\_Elliot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/t_elliot/32/453851_2.png) [@T\_Elliot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/T_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1454 "2022-09-29T17:15:37Z")
Hello Lucas, > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Yeah there’s definitely no hard numbers, they simply won’t be available. But it’s fairly common in most MMOs to reduce early players losses to reduce early negative progress. > > And we’re not just talking about frigates, remember some people don’t necessarily get huge amounts of time to play so over a few weeks may only build up a relatively small number of gameplay hours. They’re significantly more likely to have most of their ISK tied up in their first larger ship. Someone that plays for a few weeks and builds up to a retriever for example then gets popped on their first trip out, they are going to feel like there’s a lot of replay to do to recover. > > Even with the frigates though, to an extent it’s the psychological factor of being decimated by some massive player for seemingly no reason. I also think there’s a tendency for those of us who already play to think “well I’d be fine with it”, forgetting that we’re already EVE players, we’ve already been convinced to stay. A new playing who is looking for a new game to play hasn’t made the commitment yet, so it’s a lot easier to make them go elsewhere. I am a little confused by this. I think you may be agreeing with me on my statements, but I am not quite sure(?) As an old head I can remember loosing ships for silly things, and being attacked by pirates or trying to be suckered in can flippers. It was a pain to loose expensive ships, but I never felt like quitting the game over that. The time I quit playing EvE it was out of boredom. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > To some extent that’s true, the market has changed and if EVE wants to remain competitive it’ll need to change too. That said, I don’t see EVE as a particularly challenging MMO. It’s not like it’s actually a tough game that offers a great challenge, and the losses to ganks aren’t clever, intriguing losses. It’s more like venturing out of the starter area in an MMO to have some massive player oneshot you then start teabagging your corpse. > > I remember player RUST early on for example and a fairly large portion of the time you’d spawn in with nothing, and see a little dot growing larger, morph into the shape of a person who them proceeded to beat you to death then look around for the next spawning newbie. It didn’t make me thing “oh wow this game is so immersive”, it made me make use of the ability to refund a purchase. I think this is where you and I fundamentally disagree. EvE has lasted as long as it has because it is largely the last game that embraces non-consensual. If EvE tries to change to chase PvE players it is going to have to become a completely different game to succeed. While this transformation is happening it is going to chase off a large percentage of the players that are here because of the PvP. EvE has never been competitive with WoW, or FF. I doubt EvE is able to be competitive with the big PvE focused games. Why dilute the area that EvE excels at to try to compete even a little bit in areas that EvE can’t compete in? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > That’s my point, I haven’t seen you say anything about them. You act like this is a topic that must be answered because you feel it infringes on the core of EVE but then you ignore other things that do so in a far more serious way. As I said earlier, I don’t see half a dozen new threads every time I log into the forms trying to “fix” the new player skill point problem. I am reacting to what I see. The narrative that high sec combat is “toxic” and only “toxic” players engage in it was what led me to make my post about it not being toxic to shoot people’s ships in a space ship shooting game. A discussion of selling skill points seems like topic drift here, so I won’t go into my feelings about it, but if you want to start a new thread on that topic Lucas I will post in it if I notice it. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Doesn’t that tell you something about the desires of the playerbase? I’ve seen countless people come and go with complaints about ganking in EVE and yet it’s always the same dozen or so people supporting it. Maybe, but maybe not. I notice that people are also quick to say how much they don’t like the nerf ideas. It is not likely that people go to forums to say how much they like the status quo and post threads saying “keep everything the same CCP!” > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Same. I’ve mined in a yield tanked hulk fleet and watched a newbie in a retriever get blapped. I guess we have different experiences then. Maybe it is that we hang out in different regions of space. Another thing that I have not heard people talk about is how much of this high sec miner ganking is economic, and not just mining salt. For example in and around Hek there is (or was) a group trying to set up a mining syndicate that would openly have miners who were not part of their syndicate be ganked. I think a lot of this ganking of miners is economic based. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Because those tend to be for-profit ganking and I don’t think there’s an issue with for-profit ganking. Don’t get me wrong, I think ganking in general create bad press for EVE, but I’m generally against no-profit ganking as that’s the type that is generally just to grief players. I only turn to “remove all ganking” when gankers refuse to engage in any sort of compromise. As I noted above, I suspect that there is a lot more skullduggery behind the scenes in high sec, and high sec miners being ganked does often have economic causes. It is nice that we agree on a little bit at least. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > And yet here we are. > > I think one thing to note too is that I’m a firm believer that EVE can be a place for everyone. I think we can cater for people who don’t want to engage or get engaged in combat PvP as well as people who do. I think that there are more than enough ways to balance out the economy to cope with any amount of PvE players. Given player A is a PvE player and player B is a combat PvP player, I don’t understand this view where if it’s possible for player A to mine in safety that it’s now somehow impossible for player B to play the game. Both can coexist. > > It’s especially weird now that CCP have started adding more NPCs in space to make up for the lack of players making the space look empty. Just replace all those miscellaneous NPCs with PvE players paying for omega accounts. > > Sorry for the wall. I guess this is another fundamental disagreement between us. I am for PvE and PvP players both being able to play the game, but I think that it is a mistake for PvE or PvP players to be totally safe. Please note that I say this as someone who is now largely a PvE player. EvE’s PvE game just can’t compete with other MMO’s PvE. The exciting moments in EvE for me always revolve around PvP, even when I am doing PvE content. Hauling and mining, are both tedious and boring after a short while of doing it, let alone over a decade of doing it. Even the missions become tedious and boring after running them for such a long time. Unless I am hauling faction modules around for sale, and I hear my ship get cargo scanned, and then I see tornadoes sitting on the next gate. That is fun. I only mine afk, I will admit. Even doing lvl 4 missions are things I really don’t need to pay close attention to, but if I local fills up with a fleet of catalysts under the tutelage of a particular space princess, now my lvl 4 mission becomes interesting. I am not saying that removing non-consensual pvp in high sec is bad for PvP players, I am saying that it would be bad for PvE players. No worries about your long post Lucas. This was a good one in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1456 "2022-09-29T17:21:36Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I’ve not seen anyone here arguing for no PvP in highsec, just the removal of one form of PvP in highsec. Indeed. Just another element for the melting pot in a brain storm session, or a discussion, a true PvE server - no PvP for the PvP averse who want to play Massively Solo Online. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1457 "2022-09-29T17:25:18Z")
> [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > I might be miss reading it here, When the game was originally released, it was meant to be a game where “no place was completely safe” thats why high sec has CONCORD. A game mechanic to police “illegal” actions (i.e. ganking) but if the newest generation of players want to feel completely safe, than maybe it’s time for CCP to make high sec completely safe. ---
**Author:** ![T\_Elliot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/t_elliot/32/453851_2.png) [@T\_Elliot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/T_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1458 "2022-09-29T17:28:09Z")
> [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > This can be true, but let me ask you a question. Since you have been off and on since 2004, how many times have you ran across a Eve player that gave the game a second shot, and found the right group of people to help them on the second round now they are successful in the game. I think this is the opportunity you create for all those base biomassed souls by having a gank free or close to it space to play in. It may be that we find different parts of EvE interesting JJ. It is hard for me to speak to why anyone else comes and goes in EvE, but for me, looking back, it was boredom. EvE’s PvE is just not the best, even compared to older games like EverQuest or Ultima Online. What has kept me engaged in EvE is the PvP, or even just the threat of PvP. If my first experiences with EvE were in a totally safe PvE environment, I would be bored silly within a week and go back to playing Project 1999. I understand that there are people who rage quit EvE the first time that they are killed by unexpected PvP. But I think that player would have eventually quit the first time they were snuck up on and killed regardless how far you put off non consensual pvp. If these players can live in a 100% safe high sec forever I suspect that they would quit from boredom. I know I would. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1459 "2022-09-29T17:31:02Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > just the removal of one form of PvP in highsec. it can only ever be a temporary postponement of the inevitable. As they say, every ship built is destined to die in a ball of flames. And the more one understands the static pve aspects, the “harder” it is to lose ships to npc’s. Which leads to the conclusion … Right. But here’s a thing I brought up in the megathread, to which you never responded before the thread was closed: in the same spirit of the “new chinese New Eden map”, spreading rookies better across the four empires would already greatly reduce the risk of losing a ship due to pvp in the earliest stages - if such is indeed an issue, because I’m not prepared to take that statement at face value, ever, without data. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I don’t think they’d need to expand it as systems can handle a lot more people now. Originally it was good to spread people out so people didn’t overload servers and such I wasn’t thinking about server loads, or resource density, but rather about the fact that available space size is not an independent variable if you look at the macro economy and balance of the game. If the level of destruction ramps up because of higher density of combat, it would be felt on the market, which would be felt by virtually everyone. Available space, player density, resource density, combat density, production levels, and probably a few more volatile ones like risk taking, wealth, are all variables that are interconnected and influence each other. ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1460 "2022-09-29T17:40:32Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I don’t see PA running EVE for eternity, and they seem to have no problem in shutting down underperforming games. From what I can tell EVE is operating at a loss and losing revenue year on year. Yes, you’re panicking cause your reason for existence may shut down, so you are trying to save it right? LOL. Here’s a novel idea. Games die. Everything does. I’d rather EVE die as it lived, rather than become some mindlessly PVE safe farming game that dies with a whimper. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Bear in mind that this year is the first time I can remember where not only are veteran players leaving, but people who operate third party applications are jumping ship too. Also, the game is near 20 years old. In reality, removing ganking will do nothing. It isn’t ganking that’s driving people away. > [@Omnis\_Decline](#): > > It’s current, and easily verifiable by just looking at what’s going on while you play. You realize he doesn’t really play the game 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I keep track of my words. Good to know. _So_ did you find it on the box yet or > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > What I can’t control is what misrepresentations ganker alts use to try to discredit me. Brosef, you tell on yourself all the time 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > The box thing is some Gix nonsense. I’m going to continue to ignore it, yes. Huh. Maybe you don’t keep track of your words as good as you thought 😃 You can’t even really remember where its from huh 😃 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > yet EVE is inspired by Elite Actually EVE is inspired by UO as well 😃 And that explains everything. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > it’s incredibly rare to see gankers go after large mining fleets, ROFL > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > What it’s really about is time wasting. People here don’t like a fact so they demand you put together evidence, then 99.9% of the time when someone does bother to get the evidence for them it’s immediately dismissed and ignored. That’s a whole lotta words just to say I don’t got anything 😃 > [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > Can you have game play back, what is a counter play to gankers? if there is no, and nothing you can do, well ganking is a one sided game play that needs to be moved to low sec, where if I get ganked, I can just go kill you, you can’t game the kill right program, or anything else… There are tons of things. You’re just bad at the game 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1461 "2022-09-29T17:44:12Z")
Here is a proposal to balance ganking: 1.) Any Player Corp, Alliance can be wardecc’d 2.) War Hq now requires a service module that consumes Charters for where it is placed, lets start with 10k per hour for medium structures. 3.) Only 3 Wars can be active by a Player Corp or Alliance at any one time. 4.) a Player Corp or Alliance can only receive allied dec assistance 1/1 for each War Command Service module it owns. 5.) POCO’s now consume 1,000 charters per day for the empire they are placed in. 6.) It is no longer required to have a structure to be war decc’d ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1462 "2022-09-29T18:02:20Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I’d play both, but I’d overwhelmingly be more focussed on the new one just by the fact that it’d have a fresh economy to play with. And there we finally have it. Your real motivation. Never mind saving noobs and all that, you are ( as you have even admitted elsewhere ) bored of your Eve and your 20 alts and the billions you sit on and want a fresh economy to start again. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 6:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1464 "2022-09-29T18:50:14Z")
> [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > Do you know why you can’t make things idiot-proof? Because someone is out there right now (lo & Altara) making better idiots. It seems you’re worried about being left behind. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 7:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1465 "2022-09-29T19:11:40Z")
> [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > I don’t think anything is safe when CCP is losing revenue. Maybe miners and antigankers aren’t safe? ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1466 "2022-09-30T01:39:47Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > That said, I don’t see EVE as a particularly challenging MMO. It’s not like it’s actually a tough game that offers a great challenge That entirely depends on what you are actually _doing_ in Eve. It’s a sandbox, with levels of complexity of hierarchy entirely decided by players. It can thus be as simple or as complex as people make it. I’ve seen videos of battles over wormholes involving complex strategy and planning, for example. Or there’s the guy who did the 16 month double-cross of a corporation, ultimately bringing down an entire nullsec bloc. At the top level, I suspect Eve is one of the most complex games in existence. Maybe the real problem is that so few aspire to that level. ---
**Author:** ![Codename\_Razorback](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/codename_razorback/32/486427_2.png) [@Codename\_Razorback](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Codename_Razorback)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1467 "2022-09-30T01:40:05Z")
You sound defensive. What will you do when HS ganking is no longer a viable option? ---
**Author:** ![Gix\_Firebrand](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gix_firebrand/32/456949_2.png) [@Gix\_Firebrand](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gix_Firebrand)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1468 "2022-09-30T01:44:05Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > That entirely depends on what you are actually _doing_ in Eve. It’s a sandbox, with levels of complexity of hierarchy entirely decided by players. It can this be as simple or as complex as people make it. I’ve seen videos of battles over wormholes involving complex strategy and planning, for example. Or there’s the guy who did the 16 month double-cross of a corporation, ultimately bringing down an entire nullsec bloc. At the top level, I suspect Eve is one of the most complex games in existence. Maybe the real problem is that so few aspire to that level. Exactly. EVE is as complicated or as simple as you want to make it. However, the engine that drives that is player agency and choice. Removing ganking seems like a small change but in reality, it is the beginning of stripping away that agency. Once that starts to happen, it snowballs. And then you’re left with nothing but a theme park to run around in, which ultimately gets dull. > [@Codename\_Razorback](#): > > You sound defensive. What will you do when HS ganking is no longer a viable option? I dunno bro, you’re too afraid to post with your main. She’s already got you beat 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 1:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1469 "2022-09-30T01:52:04Z")
> [@Jesse\_W\_James](#): > > I honestly think you are Altara, if not you two should be dating. I only date people with at least 100 trillion ISK and a rich daddy with a Keepstar I can park my collection of pink blingy Paladins outside. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 2:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013/1470 "2022-09-30T02:02:28Z")
> [@Gix\_Firebrand](#): > > However, the engine that drives that is player agency and choice. Removing ganking seems like a small change but in reality, it is the beginning of stripping away that agency. > > Once that starts to happen, it snowballs. And then you’re left with nothing but a theme park to run around in, which ultimately gets dull. “A l’exemple de Saturne, la révolution dévore ses enfants” (Jacques Mallet du Pan) [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013.md?page=59) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/proposal-for-rebalancing-of-the-suicide-gank/368013.md?page=61)